Review Corner: The New, Updated Seedlang

Hello everyone, and welcome to a new episode of ER. On the previous episode, famous playboy and ER surgeon Dr. Emanuel (played by Robert Pattinson) was faced with a tough decision: get the equipment he needs for the brain surgery or finally stand up to his third ex-wife. Today, the conclusion. Yeah… some people are going to be really confused now. Especially Jeremy, who’s now asking himself: “What is this? This is not what I asked for.” But I’m kidding of course. This ER series is not the famous Emergency Room…

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Emanuel

Emanuel Creator & Author

World's best teacher of German words and grammar. Full Bio →

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Bissell
Bissell

I tried Seedling about a year ago and didn’t like it. It seemed kind of random with pieces of the learning process spread out all over the place. I was already with Duolingo so I did the ‘free content’ for a bit and let it go. For background, I have an Easy German Podcast subscription for over a year, I watch all the Easy German video content, I did Anje’s first video course last year, and I am a member YDG. I love E.G. and respect their media work tremendously.

Two days ago I bought the Full Seedling Membership for a year. But…much of what I didn’t like before is the same. I spent the money so I will stick with it – however, here is my opinion.

The #1 biggest problem is that there is no real structure to learn from A1 to B2 in an ORGANIZED manner. It doesn’t seem that any attention has been paid to what students will/should/need to know before anything is presented (examples below). I am probably an A2, but I listed myself as A1 in Seedling to make sure I got every ounce of the ‘teaching method’ from the platform. But sadly, there really isn’t one.
You can start anywhere, and do anything – which is great for those who already know all the basics of German and want to get to the higher level stuff or skip around to topics they like. However, if you don’t know why the ends of the words are changing, or the word order for two seemingly identical sentences is backwards for one of them – or you don’t know that word order is ‘a thing’ in German, then you are hosed.

In the app, I started at the first ‘story’ – ground zero. It is literally the first area you can click on. Introductions and Greetings. So far so good.

Then we get verbs. Just Trinken and Tragen. A video has a native speaker say it twice, and then you record yourself saying it (I am using the app) and compare the two. For those that like to skip around, you will hate this. Once you start the slow repeating of EACH conjugation, you are on for the whole ride. No way to skip forward quickly without bailing out and skipping the whole process. Someone in the comments below called it ‘parroting’ – and it feels like that at times especially when they aren’t showing you the word you are saying. That’s right, when you learn nouns and their gender, the translation of WHAT you are saying isn’t on the screen. So you are learning a word aurally, with no clue of what the noun is in English. Only after you record your version is does the translation come up.

But – that isn’t the big one for me. The major sin is that after you learn a couple of verbs and nouns, you are thrown to the wind and it is all supposed to just come to you by repeating what the dialogue says. But it just doesn’t work like that.
How’s this – shortly after the first verbs presented Tragen and Trinken you get Sein. Awesome. I’m in the “Sein” chapter. There is the classic chart showing ich bin, du bist, etc. The first video dialogue in the “New in Berlin” videos is “Sie wollen Berlin kennenlernen”. Uhhhhh. We are on ‘sein’ – and there is no sein in the sentence. I answer and press next – the next video “Wo können wir ein Ticket kaufen?”. Again – no sein, but another modal verb. Has Seedling covered modal verbs? No! Remember, I started at square 1 in the stories and just went forward. I didn’t miss anything – I did all the content IN ORDER and now we have brand new material that we are just supposed to get by hearing it over and over? Yeah, they conjugate them too…

How about “Wir sind Heute in Berlin” (yeah, it has sein!) but then “Es ist kalt Heute”. German natives won’t see that Heute has moved, but English speakers are trying to figure out why it is moving around? There has been ZERO discussion about word order to this point. By the way, the noun Heute also hasn’t been covered – it too is new. I have soooooooooo many examples of German concepts, nouns, verbs just showing up without any warning beforehand or explanation. Yes, you can ask a questioning a forum – I have but haven’t gotten any replies yet but it has only been 10 hours. However – and this is true – when teaching Horen, one of the examples used is “Ich höre dir zu”. The first comment – from FOUR YEARS ago was exactly what you think it would be – “Why dir?” Cari Schmidt herself answered this and even stated in her response that Horen and Zuhoren are different verbs and that zuhoren shouldn’t be thrown in there (remember this is A1 in the first minutes of using the app), but after FOUR YEARS the video and question is still in there. Cari said it shouldn’t be there – but it is there still. Sigh…

IF, the random verbs, nouns and German grammar are taught in Seedling – it isn’t CONNECTED across the 6 or 7 silos that have all the other content and exercises. Why do the bunny slopes of the “Stories” using Sein have modal verbs before modal verbs are covered and learned? If it is taught elsewhere, then this needs to be noted and linked for the student, but it isn’t, and it makes the experience feel very random.

Seedling is billed as ‘the right way to learn German’. But so many needed/required connections aren’t made to actually LEARN the language. The videos are fun, the native speaking is great, etc but if you don’t understand the basics of the language, it is going to hurt.
It feels like only native German speakers or more advanced students have beta-tested the layout and content flow. They already know the concepts, so it’s no shock to have the verb and nouns flip position after a sentence starting with time for example.

I know that when teaching, the first steps are the hardest to teach. But the content here on YDG in the ‘absolute beginners’ section is more than what you get before watching videos and putting complete sentences together. I expected more from E.G. putting all their weight behind Seedling. I’ll try to update my thoughts as I spend more time in it. If I am somehow using the app wrong, let me know. But then, why isn’t the ‘right way’ clear for the user? Why is there no “Welcome – we recommend you do…” a part of the process. Order through the data is important.

Bissell
Bissell
Reply to  Emanuel

Teaching is hard. That is the other half of my profession – teaching audio engineering. In that profession too, just as you said, you can’t teach everything, But a good teacher creates and places the frameworks of understanding so that the new in-the-moment learning can fall within an accepted “flow” of the content/knowledge. I know you know this, as YDG is loaded with places where you have gone back and looked at your content and realized something doesn’t fit – and you fixed or modified it.

The Heute example is two-fold. I do agree that you could learn the noun Heute in context. It is a one to one match for Today. I’m ok with that. But the moving word order isn’t because the translation should match prompt. “I’m going to the concert today” (verb at end) – becomes either:
Heute gehe ich zum Konzert
Ich gehe Heute zum Konzert

For an english native, we have three places to put it, and nothing else in the sentence changes. In German, the prompt’s example isn’t an option for direct translation (unless my A2 skills are limiting my knowledge of a time-at-the end word order). So if the prompt has the time at the end, why shouldn’t the German translation? And vise versa.

The flip of the verb and subject absolutely MUST be addressed to keep the English speaker sane. There is no sentence in English that starts “Today, go I…” so that mental option isn’t a natural thing for beginner (English). You can look at funny video and say it over and over all you want, but you will think you are speaking incorrectly each time. You haven’t been told what is actually correct and why it is correct. Decades of English speaking is fighting back.
Today I am going to the concert
I am going today to the concert
I am going to the concert today.

Also, if the prompt is “Today I am going to the concert” then the correct German translation should be “Heute gehe ich zum Konzert”. The prompt is setting the English mind to put time at the beginning. A ‘correct answer’ translation of Ich gehe Heute zum Konzert is not right. The teacher set the student up to start with time at the front – and that should be the student’s reply.

*Note – above I am using Heute as an example for all things here – I am not 100% sicher that each of these issues are with that word on Seedling – but they exist on Seedling with other words.

I can understand how those who know another language that has gender, ending declinations, and understands the basics of German word order works will find the content and freedom in Seedling to be a big plus. I am looking forward to it – I don’t need to be spoon fed anymore (partially in thanks to you and YDG), I will definitely not ask for my money back.

But again, E.G bills Seedling as “the right way to LEARN German” (yep, in quotes, they say this) – and more to the point, the app/web explains the “stories” section as “…our STRUCTURED LEARNING PROGRAM…” but that is what the stories section seems to lack; a real structure and methodology to learning German from square one. Like I said, teaching is hard – but they are the ones making the bolded statements.

(I just ripped out a long statement comparing teaching methods of language and why I always used John Adams “Short Ride” and “Harmoneliere” when I taught music appreciation…)

Like you mentioned, E.G/Seedling have tons and tons of video content, and they are using what they have. Again, I know this as I make video content for my students. But I also know that at some point, the media only works for its place in time and it needs to be modified, edited, or simply re-made so that it fits with the STRUCTURE of the program as the program evolves. If they call the stories section ‘structured’, then they need to make the content to fit that goal. Right now the available content is guiding the structure (cart before the horse).

Arpan
Arpan

Seedlang is to my German learning what Brötchen is to Germans.

Mr Burak Tilev
Mr Burak Tilev

Thank you Manuel, I have downloaded SEEDLANG on mobile and on laptop DANKE

Semaphoro
Semaphoro

Seedlang is to my German learning what marshmallows are to hot chocolate.

Halbri
Halbri

“Seedlang is to my German learning what a barfbag is to my seasickness.”

Last edited 4 years ago by Emanuel
Don
Don

I use both https://www.seedlang.com/ and https://yourdailygerman.com/ together. Overall I have found benefit to using both. Relative to the cost to taking a college course, these two online services are a bargain. Seedlang will move fast through the German language, I sometimes miss the in depth explanations found on YouDailyGerman. The Absolute Essentials is missing from Seedlang, instead the expectation is to pick this up using the click on word details while moving through the decks. I have also put sentences from Seedlang listen and repeat into YourDailyGerman Audio Recorder 2.0 to get feedback. I was not pronouncing the “ch” in Ich correct, so I found a specific lesson in Seedlang to work https://youtu.be/jo6eVzUH2cI

Last edited 4 years ago by Don
Anony787
Anony787

“Seedlang is to my German learning what a gold medal is to an Olympic athlete.”

Victoria Martinez
Victoria Martinez

Thank you. I found Duolingo unbearably boring and repetitive. Just seeing Cari in the Seedling video made me happy. I love her street interview videos and her personality. I progressed a lot in 2020 with her and her husband’s videos, specially in colloquial German. I have been too busy since to focus on German. I love your newsletter. Hoping to avail myself of your materials, hers and Seedling later in the year. Don’t stop sending me emails. It helps me to remember there is fun at the end of the tunnel.

Dan
Dan

What does “Seedlang” mean? Is it such an odd name…

Felipeze
Felipeze

I would like to thank the blog community, especially those who make the scholarships possible, as it allows me to participate in the website.

Greetings to all

Rohrkrepierer ‐ KOOK & HECKLER
Rohrkrepierer ‐ KOOK & HECKLER

Thema : Alt wie ein Baum

Fee Fei Föh Fümm!
als Setzling oder Seedlang,
bin ich leider,
zu alt und dumm!!!
7.4.22

Rohrkrepierer ‐ KOOK & HECKLER
Rohrkrepierer ‐ KOOK & HECKLER
Reply to  Emanuel

Thema: Jack and the beanstalk

Es ist ein kleines Wunder es geht wieder!!

Fei Fie Fo Fum !
I smell the blood of an Englishman!

Als braves Kleinkind (Sprössling) in der. DDR ist dieses Märchen von kapitalistischer Ausbeutung und bean seedlings (sprouts) bisher Dir völlig unbekannt. Oder??

Quiz for extra credit für Dich
Jack ist Spitzname für Vorname -???? Sozusagen offshoot

Danke für die Hilfe

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_und_die_Bohnenranke

Elsa
Elsa

Great review!
Although I don’t like Apps in general (but that’s just me, being a bit of a technophobe), this one seems to be worth the investment!
I have confirmed my subscription, just make sure I don’t get the newsletter twice :)
Bis bald!

Katherine
Katherine

Seedlang is to my German learning what butter is to hot cross buns!

Bev
Bev

“Seedlang is to my German learning what the letter ‘s’ is to the word ‘success’.”

marko
marko

Nice review! Love your blog, Emanuel, and I love Seedlang. But I started on Duolingo and Pimsleur. Pimsleur was fantastic, but only has 150 lessons. Duolingo is a lot of fun, doesn’t teach you as much, but keeps you from quitting early on. Most of all I love Anki, where I can put my own content and review it until the old brain can actually produce it. And I love listening to the Easy German episodes. Occasionally I like Benjamin’s pronunciation episodes. And Rieke, I love Rieke! Rieke saved me once I got to the point that I could not figure out all the prefixes that Germans can tack onto the front of a verb, such as schreiben or schließen.

Your AI pronunciation checker, Emanuel, is the best out there–but before your head swells too much, or your hand gets sore from patting yourself on the back–that’s still not all that great. There’s nothing like a real live teacher, wherever you find them. I found one on italki who’s absolutely awesome; and I also found a local one where I live and I talk to them both each week. The italki one lives in Vienna, so his pronunciation is much better than that of the local one, who grew up in Bremen. :). And the Norddeutscher doesn’t get the cool Viennese slang.

Anyway, Seedlang is my go-to app mostly because it does have a lot of C1 material that I can use. And it keeps getting better.

pmccann
pmccann

I had a somewhat “meh” first reaction to Seedlang: while I liked the videos, and loved the ability to compare and contrast my pronunciation with that of a native speaker, there was always a slightly “parrotish” nature to the sentences. While it has become pretty fashionable to take a dump on Duolingo at almost every opportunity, the one thing it offers that other apps can’t go close to matching is the ability to accept multiple translations to and from English and German. So, for example, when Duolingo asks you to translate “Meine Lieblingsband spielt am Samstag im Park”, it accepts over a hundred different variations as correct, including the following 3:

On Saturday, my [favorite / favourite] [band’s / band’s / group’s / group’s] [performing / playing] [at / in] the park.

My [favorite / favourite] [band / group] is [performing / playing] [at / in] the park on Saturday.

My [favorite / favourite] [band’s / band’s / group’s / group’s] going to perform [at / in] the park on Saturday.

(The notation used here should be fairly transparent: note that these “three” are really about a dozen variations.) That is, it allows a lot more flexibility in translation than any other app that I’m aware of, and this flexibility is enormously encouraging to the learner, even if you could argue about the quality of some of the alternatives in both languages! The standard, infinitely more rigid approach to translation instantly turned me off using a few other language learning systems, notably Babbel, and it’s also the one thing that feels a little wooden about Seedlang.

All that being said, my second encounter with Seedlang was a lot more pleasant, and the app has improved enormously. As you mentioned, the gender trainer, the vocabulary-building tools, and suchlike are genuinely useful, and really well implemented. The voice comparison tool is also great, and as Jeremy mentioned it is sometimes shocking to be confronted with your own long-standing mispronunciations. I would, however, recommend showing him just how fine-grained the feedback from the AI that you use on YourDailyGerman can be: it’s miles away from “wrong or right”, so his answer to your query on that issue was either (a) a little disingenuous, or (b) a (shocking!!) indication that he hasn’t been reading your blog with the required care!

pmccann
pmccann
Reply to  Emanuel

Aah, the astonishing magic of a superbly tuned and attuned language model! I can only dream of the sort of language-learning functionality that’ll be available a few years down the track using this sort of mechanism.

[[Yep, Duolingo definitely had a kind of “educated crowdsourcing” thing going for a while. Sadly, the volunteers, some of whom were astonishingly dedicated and helpful, were gradually squeezed out of the process. When I started using Duolingo volunteer moderators could still make new questions, alter existing ones, and also alter the list of accepted solutions. Once that stopped, and only paid moderators and question writers were used, the quality of questions dropped drastically, and an increasingly large number of embarrassingly poor question+answer combinations appeared, and took longer and longer to be corrected, leading to a distinct lowering of the overall quality of the offering: heck, if you’re someone being paid-by-the-question then what’s the point of bothering with all those pesky variations, right? Male/female, formal/informal, different word orders, etc etc. Who needs that pain when simply adding more questions equals more pay? Even better, cut and paste existing questions. What’s that? Forgot to alter the set of solutions to reflect the new question. What….Ever…

Or so it seems, I really don’t know the mechanics of the business, I just know that the company has been taking a lot of steps during the last few years that make it significantly less useful as a learning resource than it used to be. Most recently they stopped allowing comments on individual questions, which is utterly bizarre, but appears to be part of a raft of cost-cutting measures introduced after the IPO last year. All a bit sad, really… ah well, it was quite fun while it lasted! ]]

pmccann
pmccann
Reply to  Emanuel

> (re comments on individual questions) What? That borders on brain-dead!

Yep, that’s my take on it as well. They just froze this aspect of the site at the same time that the generic forums were completely flushed. “Interestingly” enough, when the forum deletion was announced there was a lot of talk that it didn’t really matter, because comments on individual questions would be preserved. Most of us mistakenly, and rather naturally thought that meant you could still ask and answer such comments, but then the second boot came down. The official reasoning was that it was too much effort to maintain the forums (huh?), and to moderate the discussions. Which sounds good until you realise that there was, to my knowledge, as good as zero participation in either forums from Duolingo staff. So the “work” probably amounted to spam detection and deletion, which is far from trivial, but a company of Duo’s sacrificing one of its most useful functions for such a pathetic reason really stinks. Of course “useful” here is from my perspective as a reasonably dedicated language learner. Realistically only a small percentage of users would make use of the forums, so the “hit” to the business *qua business* through this change is correspondingly small: just snag a few more high school student classes and you’ve more than cancelled out that unhappy minority!

>> And all I could think of was… crypto-currency.

Haha… Them be strooong words! But I think there’s definitely a scammy element to what’s been happening. You can almost visualise the focus-group meetings, where the focus is on how to present the company as a lean, mean, profit-generating machine. Forums/feedback? Where’s the sense in that! Quality control? Bah, nur für Weicheier!

> As it sounds from what you told me, lots of volunteers have put genuine love into their examples basically for free while others got rained with cash last year. Community built it, managers milked it.

That’s it in a nutshell… Reading the main contributor’s resigned disappointment at the rug being pulled out from under them was actually quite tough, as you could clearly sense that they knew the organisation into which they had poured thousands of hours of time so as to help language learners had transformed into something barely recognisable. Anyway, I’ll stop there, as it’s a sad tale. Let’s hope that it opens up the language learning space for some more interesting alternatives that are actually focused on the *learning* side of things instead of raw participation numbers, while incorporating some of the *good* aspects of the old-style Duo.  

>> I have heard from people in Duolingo management that they themselves find the idea that someone uses Duo for language learning ridiculous. 

((Sad to say, I don’t think they were joking (well, not much!), and viewing Duo as nothing more than a game company that simply stages itself in the universe of languages is not too far from the truth. There’s a Facebook group for those learning German that I’m reasonably active in, which has the odd interesting discussion and a bunch of helpful native German speakers, but now about two thirds of the posts are users posting their “streak” numbers, and endlessly seeking congratulations *dazu*.))

It’s certainly not a great way to learn a language, but it *is*, as mentioned earlier, still a very accessible way to get basic feedback on writing simple sentences in a foreign language, and in this way unique (for the masses who don’t have access to a dedicated language teacher). How long the residual quality is enough to counter the influx of new questions, with their more limited scope and virtually non-existent quality control is not clear to me yet, but it’s definitely a little deflating to come across a poorly written question that you’ve met before, and actually remember the “one way” it has to be interpreted so as to have the answer accepted. That’s almost the exact reverse of the Duolingo I first encountered, and it’s definitely a little deflating. Not so much for me, as I’m pretty close to the end of the effective learning that can be achieved through Duolingo, but for others the increased emphasis on both participation (more time = more value = more ads = MOAR EVERYTHING!), gamification, and hence –let’s be honest– addictive structuring, makes it harder and harder to recommend. 

MCGDN
MCGDN

Seedlang changed the way I learn German completely, I have realistically ran out of content on the app by now (1094 Day Streak) and have moved on to more advanced study, but if it wasn’t for Seedlang I would have never had structure in my learning and I think everyone should use it.

peter schäferhund
peter schäferhund

i can’t wait to see your ER episode!
The third ex-wife trope is seldom seen outside of porn or snuff, and while it seems funny… yes, doctor, it really is! 

In the 70s, there was a tv show called “Emergency!” which focused mostly on two EMTs. It had all the charm and logic you’d expect. i just watched some bits on youtubes, and SoCal styles from back then… to die for.

Me and my friends followed the show closely, and were impressed by one of the lead heroes/actors, a real man named Randolph Mantooth.

Mantooth, I’m not sure such a Mannzahn formulation exists (yet) in German, but when i return to pro wrestling, that’ll be me.

clare
clare

Seedlang is the main app I use for learning. I think it’s brilliant- well thought out, engaging and funny. It’s a real bargain too – only criticism- more trivia questions please.