Hello everyone,
Day number 19 of the Advent calendar, we’re slowly approaching the final stretch.
And behind today’s door is another round of
German Language – Myth or Fact
We already did one episode toward the beginning of the calendar but there are quite a few stories flowing around out there in the German learning sphere, not all of which are true, so I really wanted to do another one of these.
The idea is that I make a claim about the German language and its grammar and you have to decide whether or not this is actually true.
If you get it right – well, great. You know that aspect of German well.
And if you get it wrong – well great, you just learned something :). And maybe I can even bust one or the other myth that you might have heard somewhere on YouTube or Reddit and you actually think it’s true.
Like last time, you’ll be earning angel number points, which is of course an amazing additional benefit.
So if you’re ready, let’s jump in.
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Never been sure about Modal Particles so went googling and lost an hour to the University of Texas(Austin) website Grimm Grammar, worth a look
I’m very happy to receive a scholarship from you , thanks to all of you pay to make this possible! I promise that I will do my best to learn and thrive . I come from a third world country and has lost my job currently.
Es freut mich, dass ich ein frühes Weihnachtsgeschenk bekommen habe — ein Scholarship (wie kann mann eigentlich auf Deutsch dieses Wort sagen) von euch. Vielen lieben Dank!
‘myth or fact’ is actually my favourite one!
I’m so grateful to the incredible community of the website, for their contribution provided me with an opportunity to open and enjoy diesen wunderbaren Adventskalender with everyone (and also score only one answer on this quiz).
Hi Emanuel To help me formulate German sentences quickly in my head, I am wondering if I write the English translation in the German word order? For example Seitdem ich in Berlin bin, bin ich nicht ausgegangen. I know the theory and why the words are in this order but it is alien to me so I am wondering if I should think in English in German word order because this must be the way Germans think! I feel I am never going to get flipping the subject and verb at, for example, the start of the second clause or shifting the verb to the end. Regards Peter
I think ordering items in English in the German way is absolutely not useful.
It’s fine if you do it every now and then to “illustrate” things for yourself, but if you know the German words, there’s no real gain in using the English ones.
Your brain needs to learn that the German flow is different from English.
One thing I’d recommend for that switch is to practice chunks like “hab ich, will ich , kann ich muss ich” etc.
You could make a sentence like “Today, I do XYZ” and then say it once as “Ich mache heute XYZ” and then switch it around to “Heute mach ich XYZ” and just say it out loud without writing it down.
Cool thanks I’ll try it
Wow got a ZERO! Keine Ahnung: If you find “doch” in position 1, it’s not a modal particle? Ugh.
Note that it can be at the beginning:
– Doch, du hast das gesgat.
But this is NOT position 1. This is separate from the sentence.
– Doch hast du das gesagt.
This does not work.
Wow the topic topic is not nearly as controversial here as it was on Reddit!
OMG, did you see me argue on Reddit over this? (because I sure did)
Oh ya. It was hilarious. Just, like, full-on brawling.
Haha! Reddit is the best
That was fun! I got number two wrong because I didn’t know where to put modal particles in a sentence. It would be great if you had an article on it because it was really interesting.
Ditto: I didn’t like *any* of the answers to that question (not realising that modals were so positionally constrained, *that* one wasn’t going to get my vote). Time for a reorientation on that score!
After having been around here for a while the other two were nice and easy ;-)
Is there anything like this in Australian English? Like, imagine someone says something kind of strange, and you go:
I don’t know if “now” could be called a modal particle there, but it doesn’t seem like a normal “now.” It doesn’t really have anything to do with “right now, at this point in time.” It’s just kind of like a “huh? what??” The meaning would be the same if you left it out.
I was just thinking about this because “now” can usually be at the beginning, middle, or end of a sentence.
But when you use it this “funny” way, it almost has to be at the beginning, otherwise the meaning would be different.
Great example! It kind of makes doch et al make more sense.
This is a nice example! I do think it could qualify as modal particle.
It’s like “well”, but the tone is different.
To me, it expresses that the speaker kind of reaffirms “where we’ve gotten to” in the conversation. Like, “Okay, we got this far, now you come up with THIS?”
Not literally of course, but vibe-wise. So there is an element of “current moment of the discussion” in it, but it’s super abstract.
The question doesn’t change when you take it out, but the color does, so that’s definitely how modal particles feel.
How does that “now” relate to “Now what?” in your head? For me, it’s more or less the same but maybe for you they’re separate.
How does that “now” relate to “Now what?” in your head?
I think it depends. If you’re out with friends, say you just finished going down an ice slide, and you say:
That feels like just a normal “now.” What should we do next?
But say you’re at a meeting at work, and people are talking a lot about how there’s some kind of problem. And then someone says:
That feels different to me. I guess there could be a little bit of “what should we do at this moment in time?” But it mostly feels like a way of saying “what I’m about to say is related to the conversation, but I’m going to switch gears a little.” From “there’s a problem” to “how to fix it.”
Interesting, to me they kind of feel the same, but with different “intensity” or sharpness
But I do get what you mean in terms of what it expresses.
I actually do use this modal “now” a lot when writing, whenever I lack a proper transition from sentence to sentence or thought to thought.
I also missed this one. And I love modal particles and would appreciate a whole lesson on them.
I do have lessons on doch, mal, ja, wohl, eben, gerade, schon and halt :)
Hello all,
First of all sorry to break the discussion with this comment. So the thing is I just started learning german on my own but couldn’t find the right path to learn it properly.. I searched and searched and searched after that I came across of this beautiful website and took 2 grammer lesson from the website. Then I saw the option of subscription, But I don’t have the money to pay for the subscription then I mailed to Emanuel for a scholarship and he gave me that.
The main purpose of this big comment is to give my thanks to the community to Emanuel and to the persons who sponsered. Thank you very much God bless.
I’ll make sure to give back when I can.
Thank you all.
And thank you for the post! I don’t need the help right now, but I love the fact that he does this, love the fact that the community helps him to continue to do it, and love the fact that people who are gifted learning are grateful and want to pay it forward. No interruption to the discussion in my opinion.
Actually, just to add to this, it’s not rare that people actually do pay it forward. Sometimes I get an email from someone like “Hey, I had a sponsored account 2 years ago. I now passed B2 and am working as an engineer and I’d like to sponsor someone myself.”
And generally, the people receiving an account are so grateful. Always really nice to read.
I agree with the principle of kein = nicht ein (not a; singular), but how would you explain: Ich habe keine Bücher? I thought kein/keine was for unbestimmte Nomen, not numerical? Maybe I am overthinking this.
“kein” as a word evolved almost 1000 years ago, so I guess once it started being a “thing” and people stopped hearing the “one” part separately, people started using it to negate plurals as well :)
Ich habe doch ihm ein Buch geschenkt
you say this sounds weird but
what if you wanted to emphasise you gave HIM (as opposed to someone else) ?
I mean , if its weird isn’t it because Ihm is old information that tends to go to the front of the sentence. Does it sound better if its Ich habe doch Thomas ein Buch geschenkt
?
Yes, your analysis is spot on.
The example with Thomas sounds better because the “pull” to the left for “Thomas” is less strong as it is for “ihm”.
And yes, having “doch” before “ihm” basically singles out “ihm” as target, but you absolutely need to add strong vocal emphasis on the chunk. “doch IHM”. Without it, it’ll sound wrong.
Ok, but then technically it sounds like you could actually have doch in different positions?
I guess to an extent yes, but it’s not even as flexible as for “nicht”, nowhere near as flexible as “gern” and overall not very common.
For me, it’s back to the textbooks. 1/3. However, I have been having issues with kein vs nicht so, question 3 was a bit helpful to understand them.
This is not really textbook material to be honest. Especially the latter two. It’s stuff you may or may not pick up on the learning journey, but it’s not part of the core curriculum (except for the position 1 = emphasis stuff, which is sadly often taught)
I did not get the 3rd – and this is because in Dutch, that I started, “kein” has a form of “geen” with fully same function. And “geen” does not remind any “niet een”. But after you explanation – it does)
We say “keen” in Berlin dialect :)
And Moin. Must’ve had some flat landers in the area of Berlin at some point. :)
I mean Berlin is very flat itself, but yeah “Moin” is not native here but has definitely been imported from further North and spread. It sounds so friendly, and it sounds similar to “mojen” which is Berlin dialect for “guten Morgen”. In fact, for a long time I thought “Moin” meant “good morning”, because of that.
I thought I would fail. I had to pause and think about #3, but I got them all! Guess I’ve absorbed and remembered more than I realized. Yay!
And what are these points we’re talking about?
Ah, it’s just a silly joke. Every question earns you 333 points, and these triplets are called “angel numbers” in spiritual circles and they all mean something. I just found it boring to use 1 point each for a 3 question quiz, and this is the result.
Super, Glückwunsch!
I got more than usual!! Only missed 1/3 the first time. :)
Top, weiter so!
Hallo,
So, no typos, plus I have 666 points – not sure if I feel comfortable with the number of the beast ;)
As for modal particles, what about something like:
“Oh, hast du ihm kein Buch geschenkt? Er hat gesagt, er wollte unbedingt ein Buch…”
“Doch, doch, ich habe ihm ein Buch geschenkt, keine Sorgen!”
Is that completely off?
Bis morgen!
Good point!! I rephrased that to “position 1”.
The “Doch, kann ich!” is not really an intergrated “doch”. It’s more like an exclamation before the sentence starts.
– Doch habe ich das nicht vergessen.
This doesn’t work. Or at least it doesn’t mean what the learner thinks it means.
As for 666… in a religious context, yes, it’s not a number you wnat to have, but in the perfectly non-religious field of new age spirituality, the … ahem… Angel (not religious) Number 666 stands for “focusing on balance, growth and positivity.
Damn only 1/3.
Concerning the first question and the topic, the way I’ve wrapped that in my head is that the part of the sentence before the verb gives the context and help with the continuity. Therefore it doesn’t need to be the most important or emphasized.
I could say “Wir können zusammenfassend sagen, dass …”, but “Zusammenfassend können wir sagen, dass …” immediately helps the reader understand the purpose of the sentence.
Similarly during a conversation, if someone ask me what I did last week, I’ll answer beginning with “Letzte Woche habe ich…”. That’s not necessary, but the other person understood that I understood their question.
Yeah, this is a nice way to put it and the “continuation” aspect is really important especially in writing or monologues like a presentation. You use position 1 a lot to just connect sentences. No real difference to English in that regard. Intuition is a good guide for when there actually is some special emphasis and when there isn’t.