Hello everyone,
Welcome back to day number 11 of the Advent Calendar and behind today’s door is a useful little word combination that doesn’t quite mean what it seems to mean:
auch immer
One of you actually asked me about this yesterday, because it didn’t make sense in context and that’s when I realized how weird this actually is. And since it’s a somewhat common pattern that also has a variation that’s even more confusing, I decided to share that right away today.
So… just based on the parts, auch immer looks like it means also always. or always as well.
And it can mean that…
- Maria kommt immer zu spät. Thomas kommt auch immer zu spät.
- Maria is always late. Thomas is also always late.
But then, there are sentences like this:
- Wo auch immer du bist, ich bin hier.
And here, thinking of auch as also and immer as always makes NO sense.
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Great info as usual. I was bit familiar with the “auch immer” construction. However, the splitting of the auch and immer and the construction “Warum auch immer: were new. Can you please tell me why in the following sentence there is noninversion in thee main clause: “Wo auch immer du bist, ich bin hier?” Can you not say ” …… bin ich hier?” Thanks.
That’s because the two parts are not really functionally connected. It’s more like a stand alone side sentence, followed by a restart with a main sentence. Maybe it’s clearer when you imagine a dash or … between them.
– Wo auch immer du bist… ich bin hier.
– Wo auch immer du bist – ich bin hier.
Ahh, ich verstehe. Danke schön.
Wow! Was that ever right in my wheelhouse, as we say. Probably annoyed some people, but I love trekking in these far, strange fields of grammar.
It’s not that far really, you’ll definitely find this in daily life :)
Hallo Emanuel! Guten Morgen!
Ich lese sehr gern die Beiträge zum Adventskalender :D
Ich wollte heute nur einen kleinen Vorschlag -vielleicht für später- machen, da ich heute über folgenden Aussage gestolpert bin
“Dieser Käse hier schmeckt mir persönlich am meisten.” und einen Kollegen von uns hat ihm korrigiert und gesagt “am besten” Ich finde aber, dass das für Nicht-Muttersprachler nicht automatisch klar ist.
Ich würde nämlich denken:
viel –> mehr –> am meisten. Also: Ich mag diesen Käse viel, mehr als andere Käsesorten – ja, ich mag ihn am meisten.. Und war soooo verwirrt! Jedenfalls, wie gesagt: nur als Idee :)
Ich freue mich auf die nächsten Türchen :)
Geht “auch immer” mit “welch?”
“Auf welche Seite auch immer (welche auch immer Seite?) die Münze fällt, ich gewinne den Spiel.”
Ja, das geht auch.
– Auf welche Art auch immer – ich kriege, was ich will.
Sehr aufschlussreiche Lektion, Emanuel. Obwohl ich Muttersprachlerin bin, lerne ich immer was Neues dazu durch dich. Nur eine Frage, in dem Beispielsatz, “Du kannst dich setzen, wo du willst” sollte es nicht heissen, “Du kannst dich setzen, woHIN do willst?” Bei “sitzen” sagt man doch “wo” und bei “sich setzen” sagt man “wohin” – oder?
Rein logisch hast du völlig recht, und “stellen” zum Beispiel BRAUCHT eine Richtungsindikation.
– Wo stelle ich mich?
– Ich stelle mich da.
Das geht nicht. Da braucht mindestens ein “hin”.
Aber bei “setzen” geht es auch ohne Richtungsindikation und ich glaube, das liegt daran, dass setzen alleine funktioniert.
– Ich setze mich.
Das ist okay, und daher funktioniert auch ein einfaches “wo” statt “wohin” (was natürlich auch geht).
– Ich setze mich da.
Das klingt ein bisschen komisch, aber ich glaube sogar das ist noch in Ordnung.
Hallo,
Bit late to comment, but there are no typos I could find (same goes for the previous article)…
I knew about the wo, wenn, etc. auch immer, but had really never seen the reversed order, so thanks for that :)
Was auch immer du schreibst, lerne ich (oder ich lerne?) etwas ;)
Bis bald!
Good question!
– Was auch immer du schreibst – ich lerne etwas.
This is the only one that works. The reason is that the “was auch immer” sentence constitutes an entity, either subject or object. And this would need to be integrated into the other sentence. But the sentence is “fully served”. So it’s like a restart after putting the “was auch immer”- object out there. A bit like
– Pasta – I like that very much.
We have in English the older and higher register-sounding “-soever.” Whatsoever, whosoever, etc. We still use whatsoever frequently, but the other question word versions of this range from uncommon to archaic. It sounds very Biblical. “Whosoever wouldst be my disciple…”
Was there ever “whensoever” or “wheresoever”? And how weird would that sound to a native speaker if I were to use that. Like… could I use that for fun?
Definitely only for fun, and I think the meaning would come through (I imagine a native speaker would probably just silently ignore the middle “-so-“, but make a note the theatricality/pomposity level at play).
As Rosekidsmom mentioned “whatsoever” is by far the most prominent such form, but it’s worth noting that it almost always appears in a negative formation. “I have no idea whatsoever” sounds thoroughly modern, and not even high register, but I can’t even think of a positive variant that doesn’t sound archaic (or religious: there’s a well known hymn that begins “Whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto me”, so it still has a little currency in that domain).
(*) Minor confession time. Since becoming friendly with the “da-” words in German I occasionally find myself using “backported” versions of similar constructions during ordinary conversations in English. “therefrom”, “therein”, “thereon”, “thereafter” etc… They do seem to have existed way, way back, so it’s quite fun to inject one into a conversation: the meaning is straightforward, of course, but it still garners an odd look from some folk.
Doesn’t it feel really pompous and “pontificatory” (no idea if that’s a word) to “throw in” a casual “thereon”? Like… can you really do that unironically, as if it was the most normal thing to say?
No, no, it definitely signals its arrival: I may have undersold the degree to which they call attention to themselves. In short, there’s no incognito or radar-ducking with such constructions, and some definitely sound better than others! The differentiation between them is probably just a matter of how closely the corresponding verb+preposition pair is bound. “Therefrom” (=~from_that), “therein” (=~in_that), and “thereafter” (=~after_that), where “that” is the topic, sound quite banal to me, but other ears may react very, very differently ;-)
Not sure about those two, but they certainly aren’t used now. I think you could get away with wheresoever (it even popped up on my autofill on my keyboard), though people would definitely give you strange looks. Whensoever also comes up on my autofill and I understand it’s meaning, but in conversation I’d have to pause to understand what I’d just heard.
Just a side rant here: more and more these days I hear people saying ‘whenever’ when they just mean ‘when.’ E.g., “Whenever my husband was putting up the tree, he set it in crookedly.” I wonder if they are trying to sound a little fancier, but not realizing that ‘whenever’ is used to mean in every instance of this situation, when they mean ‘when’ for an one particular time. Whensoever, of course, would be even worse!
Either Biblical or legal. I remember the “-soever”s from the King James Bible (“Whosoever believeth in me…”), but I picture those phrases in legal documents as well (“To whomever it may concern…”).
Note, though, that it wouldn’t be “Whosoever wouldst…” – that’s for “thou,” the English equivalent of the German “du” form. It would be “Whosover would…” for third person.
You are correct, thank you. I think I was trying to make it sound even older. Shame on me for knowingly manipulating the English language!
For the pompous/theatrical tone, how about the English “no matter where?” The same basic meaning as “wherever,” but with extra emphasis.
Oh, that’s a good math indeed.
I’ve also heard it used in sentences/phrases without “auch” like “wo immer du bist.” Or at least that is in one song I like. When is it possible to leave out “auch” and when is it not?
Wo immer du auch bist, ich bin hier.
Wherever you may be, I’m here.
In English, this sentence sounds dismissive, more like: “Go wherever you need to go, I’m staying right freaking here.”
Does it have that feeling in German? Or is the sense of the German sentence more like the Friends jingle “I’ll be there for you”? Is this a here/there confusion?
Hm as a native US English speaker, I don’t think it sounds like that, I think it could be nice or dismissive depending on the context. If you’re in a fight and you don’t know where the person is, sure you could mean it like that.
But if it was in a poem or love letter then it would sound nice. Then again, I guess in that case it should be, “Wherever you may be, I’ll be here/there” (depending on what exactly you want to convey). Because it’s more about the person moving around and always being there for them no matter what, not where they are at that particular moment in time.
The German example is really generic/neutral but I think the default reading would be that you’re saying that the person can rely on you being “here”.
Important note though: this “here” really means “here” as in “where the speaker is”. So it does NOT mean “here for you”. It just means “I’m here”
Does wo auch immer mean the same as irgendwo?
Not really. “irgendwo” indicates one spot, while “wo auch immer” indicates that the where doesn’t matter. They can overlap in that sense, but they’re definitely not to be thought of as synonyms. Also, “wo auch immer” is kind of like an intro word for a side sentence.
– Wo auch immer du bist….
– irgendwo du bist… NOPE
There is a dismissive “whatever” in English that comes at the end of a description, or even as a one word response to someone. I’m guessing those are not “was auch immer”s.
“You missed the most important point I was making!” … “yeah, whatever”
Wie sagt man das auf Deutsch?
I would say “egal” and I’ve seen “meinetwegen” in (Comic) books. The excellent dict.cc seems to agree
https://m.dict.cc/englisch-deutsch/whatever.html
Also, less polite, “sch*** drauf”
“Oida”! sagt man in Wien. Oder “is ma scheißegal”.
Hi Marko Thanks for introducing the word Oida. Not sure if I would it on my travels to Austria. Perhaps I might try it with cafe waiters and see what happens! Sounds like it would be used more with friends you know well. Tschuss Peter
If it’s anything like “Alter” in Berlin, I’d probably NOT use it with people you don’t know :).