Hello everyone,
And welcome to a series that has been dormant for so long, it actually almost got cast as Sleeping Beauty.
I’m talking of course about What is the Difference.
Most of you only know it from the dusty archives.
But now it’s back, young, wild and free, with a new episode.
And today, we’ll take a look at the difference between
beide and beides
beide and beides both translate to both. But of course they’re not interchangeable.
Like for instance in a simple sentence like “I like both.”, picking the wrong one can sound REALLY bad.
Now, there are plenty of videos about this question on German learning Youtube, Insta and TikTok and they do give useful advice, but I feel like most of them also have their blind spots, because the matter is actually a bit more complicated than it first seems.
Perfect for a nerdy deep dive that leaves you absolutely dazzled and confused. Like, in a good way.
You know, like… when you’re watching these black hole documentaries on Discovery Channel or an Effortless Skin Care Routine video on the Vogue Youtube channel and you’re just like “Wooooow, I understood none of this, but this was sooo fascinating.”
So are you ready to dive in?
Then let’s go.
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I knew the YouTube video I watched about beide v.s. beides was missing all the fun details. It was basically simplified that things that are the same or different, and I think something about actions v.s. people was mentioned. Anyways, I always come here for the best explanations. Thank you
Glad to hear that, I’m trying to be more thorough than the average Youtube video :)
I’d like to comment on your question: is the sentence “both sounds good” correct? From a technical standpoint, that sentence is incorrect. The reason is that plural nouns don’t get assigned singular verbs with -s at the end. As an example, which more correct: “They both runs at night.” or “They both run at night.” The same applies in this situation.
That all being said, if someone was talking to me and used “both sounds good”, I wouldn’t even notice it as a mistake. Truthfully, I think it has something to do with the word “sounds.” When I use any other verb in that sentence, it becomes very awkward to me.
At entrances I’m often asked: English or Deutsch? what would be correct answer: beide or beides?
I’d say “beides”.
“both sounds good” for me means: “doing both (not just one of them) sounds like a good idea to me”
“both sound good” means: “each of those sounds good” and would be the more expected answer if you’re just sounding someone out on what they like
“Both sound good” is probably the “proper” way to say it but honestly “both sounds good” sounds totally fine to me too in some contexts.
Really good explanation of a complex concept – thanks!
“This whole lense of specific ..” is a typo, but also a difficult word choice. Idea? Concept?
sometimes [in English, you can replace “both“ with “either”, changing the sense but not the grammar. Does that help us choose between beide and beides?
Tony
I was reading the article again and this part I find pretty interesting.
Does that feel like an activity to you, like “Ski fahren,” or more like an abstract idea?
In English, it feels like a noun to me.
– Should we get Italian tonight, or Korean?
– Do you feel like Italian tonight, or Korean?
It’s almost like “food” was just left out. The sentences are complete as is, but “Italian” and “Korean” feel like nouns. Whereas “Italienisch essen” seems almost like a prefix verb.
Great question. It does not feel as much like an actual “activity” the way “Ski fahren” does, but it does feel like something I do.
You’re actually right about it being like a prefix verb, but “Ski fahren” is no different in that sense.
“italienisch essen” is a verb with an adverb.
– Ich hab Bock auf Indisch.
This is less clear, but to get to the noun, you’d not only have to add the noun “Essen” but also the adjective ending “-es”, so in that sense, the verb is a bit closer.
Not sure if I’m making sense :)
Yeah, I see what you’re saying. Seems like “Indisch” would have to be a noun there, but I guess it’s not that far removed from a verb, in the sense that you just slap on “essen” and presto change-o, you’ve got yourself a prefix verb.
Actually, you don’t really need a verb even:
– Ich will raus.
– Ich will Indisch.
Modal verbs do enter into these quasi prefix verb relationships and in the example with “raus”, it does not actually feel like a verb was skipped.
Ohhhh. Interesting. That “feature” of modal verbs is pretty interesting. Takes some work to get a feel for it.
I customized the prefix verb cards so I can practice that. Just put sticky notes on some cards and added “können”, “müssen”, “wollen” and a couple prefixes like “los”, “mit” and “weg”. (The blank cards are handy.)
Oh, I’m really happy to hear you’re using the cards in practice!
And putting sticky notes on them is a great idea to expland the pool!
Very nice. I was so happy with the lesson that I dropped the ball during the quiz.
Regarding the sentence from the Handelsblatt I referred to, namely:
… could one also say “Beides ist heute Gewinnbringer”. Because, using “sind” the literal English translation would be “Profitmakers are today both”. That would be equivalent to “Both are today profiitmakers”, right?
In my own mind, the intended sentence would have “both” as the subject.
– “Beides ist heute Gewinnbringer”
No, that sounds wrong. The sentence is basically an equation and the more defined/specifc side of the equation gets to rule the verb in German.
This has nothing to do with “beides” in particular.
– Das sind Gewinnbringer.
– Gewinnbringer sind das.
I’m getting it.
if I were asked, “Would you like a piece of pie or a piece of cake?” I could say either “Both sound good,” meaning that either would be acceptable or I might say “Both sounds good,” meaning that I would rather not choose,
but be greedy and eat two desserts.
Hi Emanuel
Just asking something out of this article. can you please recommend few German storytelling kinda books like Easy Peasy Beginner Type ( I’ve A2 proficiency aiming for B1)
Danke
Can’t really help with that :). I don’t read these types of books but maybe someone reading the comments has an idea.
I see, kein problem.
What kind of genre do you like in books? I might try that, as I enjoy reading English novels, so perhaps the German version would be good too.
Also, I read that article on learning vocabulary and I tried learning words daily using the brute-force memorization technique you mentioned. but it doesn’t seem to be working.
I’m failing to keep it interesting, do I have to write down every verb, adjective, conjunction, etc, that I encounter daily or specific list…. Please help me figure it out !!!
My favorite genre is fantasy, but I really don’t read books. Haven’t read one in years and years.
The last one I read was “Raven’s End” in English.
About vocabulary:
What’s your current level?
Generally, you would build a stash of 50 to 100 cards with a mix of words – some new, some known, some important, some useless. And then go over them again and again and again, until you get about 80% of them right. That’s when you mix in some new cards or open a second stash. Do not count anything, just go by how familiar a stash feels. And it needs to be big. Not just 20 cards, that’s not enough to lose track of numbers.
What’s your current level?
Don’t know how to rate, like I’ve completed A2 level. Know all the basic verbs, adverbs, conjunctions, etc.
I made a mistake while making the list you know like it was all blunt kinda, but now I got your point.
My exam is in April month, though no counting is in the rule. what do you think will this work? I’m doing grammar, and reading passages. should I do something more?
I’d try it out for two weeks. And meet each card with curiosity – “Oh, I know this one, nice” or “Oh, I forgot this one, nice.”
As for preparation… depends on how the exam looks like.
I would personally recommend books from Janosch’ Bär und Tiger series like “Wie Schön ist Panama” or “Post für den Tiger” etc. The illustrations are nice, the vocabularly is fairly simple (although with a the odd quiet specific words that won’t make it onto the B1 word list e.g. Pfoten”) plus they are written in Präteritum so this a good place to start getting used to this.
When I was a bit more advanced (still around b1) I also found rereading Tintin comics in german translation pretty useful as i was familiar with them already plus the pictures often give additional context to help understand.
wow, I just checked Janosch’ Bar and its series. It looks good to start with. Any rec for books?
Oh Wie Schön is Panama is the famous one
Noted. Thanks very much for taking the time to answer this.
There are many books in German in various genres available for free on the Kindle. Many are independent or the first book in a series. But it’s free, if you don’t like one, move to the next. Reading on the kindle is great because you can easily look up words, and if you highlight words, you can export all of the highlights in a book to a PDF and use that to make flash cards. Probably possible with other eReaders too.
Also, i recommend Young Adult books. They tend to be more interesting and use more standard language than kids books, but are easier to read than adult books.
Oh, very good point!
Childrens books are NOT particularly easy, because they usually contain a lot of niche vocabulary. Young adult is indeed the genre that is closest to normal everyday speech I would say.
I have to respectfully disagree with the “childrens books contain a lot of niche vocab but books for teenagers don’t”. I’ve read both books for teenagers and children in german and both contain niche vocab to some extent, depending on the theme.
Unless you have a book that is specifically written for learners in mind based on a a2 oe b1 word list I think there are going to be the odd word that isn’t on that list.
Of course if you hold the opinion that books for teenagers are orientated towards day to day life / social themes rather than fantastical themes then thats something else…
Its also ambiguous what “books for young adults” means. I heard “Wir Kinder von Bahnhof Zoo” is/ was read by teenagers in schools. I’ve read it and that’s way beyond someone at A2 who is struggling to memorise core vocab.
I was thinking of avoiding picture books, which are often written to help readers pick up sounds and rely on people being native speakers to fill in the meanings. There are of course lots of exceptions. If you don’t mind slightly outdated language, “Ein Brief für Tiger” and “Der Kleine Riese” (by Hans Wilhelm) are ok. You’ll finish them in a few minutes of course.
Then there are books on the cusp between Kids and YA like the “Das Magisches Baumhaus” and “Die Drei ???” which are pretty easy. I read a few with my son 2 years ago. But, something like “Momo” is only a little harder while being much more interesting.
The dedicated “A1/A2” readers, like “Der silberne Kugelschreiber” use dramatically simplified sentence structure and include vocabulary lists. I tried reading that one recently (my wife has it), but you don’t get a feeling for natural sentence structure, and really it isn’t much easier to understand than the other books i mentioned.
FYI @Anisha
Hi Jeffrey, I find your comment quiet interesting. Of course there are different ways of learning for different people so I’m definitely not saying you or I are correct. Some people like without pictures, but it might be preferable for others.
I’m curious though if you have attended lessons that follow the a1-a2-b1 framework as my feeling is you’re perhaps overestimating what an average student in a2 or b1 one clasess would understand. I listened to a lot of die drei ??? episodes at one point and I wouldn’t describe them as “easy” for the average student at a2. I also don’t think someone from an a2 class could read “Wie Schön is Panama” in a couple of minutes.
I didn’t mean that they would be easy for an A2 student, but that it would be easy enough that someone trying to learn B1 shouldn’t be overwhelmed. The original poster said they had already finished A2.
I haven’t listened to ???, only read a bit of the books. Is it worth it? I downloaded them for my 10 year old (he’s fluent now), but he isn’t interested.
Die 3 ??? was a big part of my german listening learning process. I used to listen to the same episodes repeatedly till I could more or less understand an entire episode. I don’t really listen to them any more but the episodes still have a goofy charm, even if it can be a bit annoying too sometime. You probably know already the series has a cult following with some older germans even though its supposedly aimed at teenagers.
Classic! I listened to them a lot when I was a kid and yes, it has nostalgia listeners even among adults.
I would say that the average A2 student is not ready for books yet, due to a lack of vocabulary.
The only exception are A2 learning novels, but a normal novel usually contains too many unfamiliar words in a row to be enjoyable. Just my personal view though. I’m a big fan of rote memorizing 2000 words and then starting to read.
I popped by the library today and picked up a bunch of “Tim and Struppi” comics after this conversation.. I’m reading one of the later ones, and although the later ones do get more sophicsticated , what struck me is how sophisitcated some of the language is. Like, grammatical structures with modal verbs you learn at c1.2, genetiv verbs etc. You can figure it out of course,but thought it was interesting…
Right, I see your point. I will try, Danke!
@Jeffrey
That sounds good I hate starting a book(physical copy) and leaving it halfway:(
Yes. If you don’t have an eReader though, you can get cheap books from local Library book sales, if you’re in Germany. Then you don’t have to feel bad if they don’t work for you.
The previous comment was from Queueblanche ([email protected]). I did not intend for it to be “Anonymous.”
As usual, I found the article really useful. I must admit that I was not aware of “beides” at all. We never stop learning. I missed only the “both-what” question on the quiz. Frankly, I did not grasp that explanstion after reading it a couple of times. I did, however, like your “concept” versus specific-item” explanation. On the question of “Both sound good” or “Both sounds good,” as a native speaker of English, I personally would say “sound” not “sounds.”
For some reason, I can hear someone saying “sounds” as he were saying ” Each sounds good,” but it still sounds incorrect to me.
Hm… so many people seem to have understood it. To me it was super discouraging… I still, after all the examples and this conversation here, understand absolutely nothing and can hardly do an example without a mistake (when it’s right it’s just a lucky guess). Normally I’m not an idiot with languages, def. not with German, but now I feel like a huge one.
Hmm, sorry to hear that. Maybe my explanation made you start overthinking and overanalyzing the issue, and this never helps :).
Try to just go with “two living beings => beide”, “two [noun] => beide”, “two activities/verbs => “beides”. That should get you right 80% of the time.
I don’t agree that ambitious means “going all the way around” – where did you hear that definition?
Oh, I meant this as the origin of the current meaning. It’s of course not the current meaning. I have added a comment there now to make it more clear.
Great guide! Now I know why my German partner says stuff like “Beides ist gut” which always sounds terrible to my American ear. As others have said, it is always incorrect to use “both” as a singular noun in English. But maybe we can think of it more like “either,” which is always singular and as far as I know would still be translated to “beide(s)” in German, in the case of “either one works” kind of thing. Of course it’s not a perfect correlation because “either” is always singular, whether it’s talking about people, two like things, or two different things. But at least it can help us see why it’s not so crazy for “beides” to exist as a singular noun.
“Both sounds good” is always grammatically wrong. “Both” is always considered plural in English because it refers to two things within the pair.
Example: “Both ideas sound good.” “Both sound good.”
Agreed. Shall we have cream or ice cream (or both)? Both sounds good. The both in the question may (possibly – it depends) be assumed if not said out loud.
Hmmm… Love this getting philosophical. Let’s go to Paris. Should we go five or seven days? Am I the only one, who would actually say: “”Seven” sounds good”?
Or would you say “Seven sound good.” Because, actually it is not the number of days you are referring to but the (singular) idea of going seven days. (Seven days don’t sound like anything.)
In the case of “both”, I would say that if someone suggests to do both, you could answer “”Both” sounds good.”
So, if you were indecisive about the idea of having cream or ice cream, you would probably say “Both sound good.” If someone – like Dave – suggests having both (cream and ice cream) you would probably say “”Both” sounds good.”
Ohhh, this is a GREAT example for how using “beide” feels when you should use “beides”.
At least to me “Seven sound good” sounds REALLY weird in the context you set up, even though there’s technically clearly the noun “day” established.
But the choice is still between “going 5 days” and “going 7 days”. The action is anchored in my brain, not the noun “day”.
Allow me to tell you how grateful I am that you make it possible to “batch-blur” the English of examples so that my eyes don’t “cheat” or inadvertently catch a word or phrase to help me work through the translation on my own. And once again, I love, Love, LOVE this website. I never fail to learn something useful, interesting, or fun on each visit. I only wish I had more time to read as well as reflect on every article in depth.
Thanks for the feedback, I’m really happy to hear that.
I’m actually thinking about making this a cookie setting so you set it once and then it just stays that way till you change it for all articles.
That would be nice, but my enthusiasm will remain undiminished even if it were never to happen. :-)
In the sentence “Both are good ideas.”, ”Both” is the subject and “good ideas” is a subject complement (but not an object). Perhaps it’s different in German since “beides” sounds wrong to my (naive) ear.
For example, “What do you think of the proposals?” “Both (proposals) are good ideas.” “Was haltest du von den Vorschlägen?“ „Beide (Vorschläge) sind gute Ideen.“
I don’t know how exactly they analyze it in German grammar but the “more specific” entity gets to have the verb in German.
– Ein Paar sind Thomas und Maria.
– Das da sind zwei Bäume.
This is an interesting example, actually, because “beide” would sound good if you DON’T add “Ideen”. We already have a noun for it (“die Vorschläge”) but then you’re redefining it to “Ideen” which is weird. It’s like saying “Both suggestions are good ideas”.
Okay… it sounds worse in German actually.
You COULD say “Beides sind gute Ideen” though because you’d establish a new, unfilled entity “beides” which you then fill with specifics (“Ideen”). That feels satisfying.
It’s perfectly correct and normal in English to say something like “Your proposals are great ideas (for improving efficiency).”
I’ve gone past my free allotment of 2 lessons. Don’t answer me now as I haven’t gone though this lesson yet. But my most recent sentence acquired from the Handelsblatt is “Beides sind jetzt Gewinnbringer”. The declension of beides looks like that of a d-word. So with reference to the preceding quoted sentence, part me would like that sentence to be “Beides (Ding) ist jetzt Gewinnbringer.”. But I look forward to tomorrow when I go through it.
When I go to Google translate, it suggests the sentence should be “Beide sind jetzt Gewinnbringer”. I truly hope it’s not a mistake in the newspaper.
Should I answer now :)?
Truth be told I’m still in the dog box. It will probably be tomorrow. But I managed to gather from the graphic in your title, that beide will apply to people & beides to things. So the newspaper is not wrong. Why I felt uneasy, was, the preceding sentence was:
Because I thought the “oder” should be “und” I was feeling skeptical. My other question is, what effect does the insertion of “etwa” have in the first sentence. Did he purchase a shareholding of Pixar studios? But you can give priority to your other replies.
Let’s modify that to “people” vs “activities”. And “things of same type” tend to be “beide” as well.
Now, with additional context, I would say this is a very clear “beides” because it’s kind of hard to find a noun that fits both things: animation studio, right to an IP.
You could maybe call it “assets” but you’d have to think of that and whenever it’s not immediately obvious what the answer is to “both what?”, “beides” is probably the right choice.
As for “etwa”:
This means “for example” here. Pretty common in writing, not often used in speaking.
Handelsblatt is correct I’m told by a native speaker.
But this is also correct: “Beide Unternehmen sind jetzt Gewinnbringer.” So I would have expected “Beide sind…”
Go figure!
“Beides sind… ” works, and depending on what came before,also “Beide sind… ” can work.
This is an interesting examples because using “beides” here kind of “cleans the slate”. You’re erasing whatever noun was used before and set up a new one (“Unternehmen”) by using a super generic “beides” and the reveal what your new noun is.
You know when E. re-writes an article x times, that mastery of the topic is going to take a while.
If the VHS offered an intensive 5-day course on “Beide”, I would sign up.
You hear “Beide et al” enough in the day-to-day language for decent comprehension, but using it with high confidence remains elusive.
“Beides ist gut” is hardwired as the default, and you deal with error messages later.
I do wonder how English and German diverged on this. For other Germanics, I’d guess that nederlans is similar to deutsch.. and the nordics? hmmm
In Spanish, “ambos” is always plural i think – so blaming the Norman French, again, for our German learning troubles seems quite reasonable.
““Beides ist gut” is hardwired as the default, and you deal with error messages later.”
If you ammend that with “beide sind gut” for people, then that’s a really good default approach.