Hello everyone,
and welcome to the last episode of this year’s “Summer, Sun and Vocab Fun”.
Yes, it’s September already, but at least in Berlin the weather is amazing so one last time, we’ll do a short, sweet article about one of these words that you never really notice.
Until you do.
And then they’re like everywhere all of a sudden. Kind of like your partner’s worn underwear in the apartment. You don’t see it and then, all of a sudden, it’s everywhere. Next to the couch, under the table, in the fridge, in that fine bottle of Gin. Like… how the hell does it even get in there. I bought this literally yesterday.
But anyway, I digress.
Let’s get to the topic and today, that’s the meaning of
scheitern
Some of you probably now observe their brains being like “Hmmm, that looks a bit like Scheiße.”
And that’s actually not completely wrong, because saying a nice, heartfelt “Scheiße!” might be exactly what we need as an outlet after some scheitern.
Because scheitern is to fail.
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And what is the difference between scheitern and fehlschlagen?
In the sense of an attempt failing, they’re pretty much the same, but “fehlschlagen” can NOT be used for a person failing an attempt.
– Ich bin gescheitert.
– I failed.
You can’t use “fehlgeschlagen” here. That would sound like you were the project that failed.
Er ist bei der Prüfung durchgefallen. Das Scheitern ist seiner Faulheit geschuldet/ zuzuschreiben.
Er ist wegen seiner Faulheit bei der Prüfung durchgefallen.
Which one seems more german-isch:)?
Thank you so much for your great content, dear Eemanuel.
They’re both correct, but the first one is very high register and more for written German. The second one is how people would talk.
I have another question, not actually about scheitern, but about a da-compound in your email introducing this article. Your email has the sentence:
I’m trying to figure out how dazu gehört works here. I get the overall idea, but the question is, is dazu gehört sometimes used as kind of an idiom (“this involves, this includes”), but here in is this particular construct it would be considered strict German, and doesn’t have a ready counterpart in English? I see your English translation was:
… so maybe it’s the latter, i.e., it doesn’t have a direct translation in English? Hope my question kind of makes sense.
Actually, I made a typo there, it should be
– das für viele Lerner dazugehört.
It’s the verb “dazugehören” which is quite common and means “to be a part of, to belong”.
The translation depends on the context, but the core idea is always the same.
Does that help?
Yes, that helps! I don’t think I even knew that da-compound separable prefixes existed. Would this be correct, using the verb “davonfahren”?
“Sie sagte ihm keine Worte und fuhr davon.”
If that is indeed correct (not sure), how does one know that the verb is actually the separable “davonfahren”, rather than the verb being just plain “fahren” with the adverb “davon”? Not sure if I can formulate that question correctly…
Your example is 100% correct!
And your question leading right into the gray area between prefix verbs and not prefix verbs.
There’s no clear way to tell whether something is a prefix verb or not other than looking it up, also for native speakers. The rule of thumb is “treat it as a prefix verb” but you’ll find plenty of people who would spell it “davon fahren” and not “davonfahren”.
Both versions exist, but they have slightly different meanings.
Not exactly the same because it’s not with da-words, but here’s an exercise that touched this issue
https://yourdailygerman.com/zusammen-prefix-german/
Here is an attempt to use scheitern (real-world example):
Ich habe versucht, ein gemeinsames Git-Repository einzurichten, bin aber an unseren komplizierten Abläufen auf unserem Remote-Server gescheitert.
Sounds perfect and very very very familiar to me :D
Vielen Dank für den Artikel. Warum bedeutet Scheiterhaufen nicht nur “punishment of death by burning at the stake”, sondern auch “apple bread pudding”? Ich habe ein Google Image Search für Scheiterhaufen gemacht, und habe viele Fotos, die zeigen “apple bread pudding”, gefunden.
I’ve never heard that before but I get these results too. Maybe it’s because it’s essentially a pile of old bread and apples but I honestly have no clue.
Seems that the chunks of bread laying on top of each other are somehow reminiscent of the “before” image of a funeral pyre (imagine a bunch of baguette-chunks laying around, I guess?). The after-image probably isn’t so well-correlated, unless you’ve really managed to fuck up the oven temperature when cooking the dessert.
It’s quite macabre to call a dessert after its resemblance to that type of “stake”… oh well… Austria, I guess.
(waiting for Austrians to protest in the comments)
Thank you to everyone who contributes to the people without money!
I am a refugee in Germany, and with those coherent articles, I can set my German to be able to enroll in the Uni :)
It is heartwarming that some people think about somebody like me.
Quite a few do, actually :). Willkommen.
Maybe it’s worth tossing out the looks-related-but-isn’t gescheit (or, as the Bavarians say [a LOT], “gscheid”). It’s related to [ent]scheiden, not Scheit or scheitern, and means “sensible” or “smart.”
I don’t remember ever hearing it in Berlin back in the day (though I may just have missed it), but it’s super, super common down south.
I do associate “gescheit” with Bavaria, indeed :).
– was gscheids zu esse
This for example.
And it actually IS related because “scheiden” belongs to the same family :)
Just as long as you remember it’s not so closely related that you think “wos gscheids zu esse” means “was gescheitertes zu essen”
Ohhhh, right :).
Never realized how confusing that could be. Did that trip you up once?
Haha nah, I think the context usually makes the meaning pretty clear. It’s really only if you see it spelled “right” that it could look confusing enough to be considered a false friend.
I do remember being pretty mystified the first time I was on an MVG train and the news/entertainment screen introduced a Bavarian trivia section with the title “Bayern für Gscheidhaferl” and my Berlin-German brain is just like “what is gscheid and what is Haferl???”
I have no idea what “Gscheidhaferl” could be :D. And yes, I’d actually try out meanings with “gescheitert” too, in my head.
Found this googling:
Für die, die genauso wie ich in Bayern nur „neigschmeckt“ (zugezogen) sind, hier eine Definition: Ein “Gscheidhaferl” ist jemand, der zu allem etwas Gescheites beizutragen hat. Der Begriff „Haferl“ steht auch für „Nachttopf“, was viel über die Qualität des Beitrags sagt.
XD
all the meanings of *skei- coming together
Ohhh, also im Prinzip sowas wie ein Klugscheißer :)
Now I need to know how we got to shit from *skei-
You “shed out” stuff from your body :). You separate it from you if that makes sense.
Or “cutting” away something unneeded :D
Can versagen take one of those zu-Nebensätze?
For example:
Ich hab versagt, das zu machen
No, you’d need to add in a “dabei”.
– Ich habe dabei versagt, xyz zu machen.
And this is not exactly good style either.
But it’s correct from a grammatical point of view, or?
I take this isn’t idiomatic at all…
I believe the negated version you propose (nicht schaffen) doesn’t fully cover the idea of failing. If I failed, it means that I at least I tried an put some effort in trying to succeed. When I say nicht geschafft, I could also mean that I didn’t even try, maybe because of lack of time.
Here I could also be forcing the semantics of my mothertongue (Italian) onto German :D :D
You’re completely right about “nicht schaffen”, it can mean that you didn’t even try because you couldn’t find the time.
But there’s still at least the intent of trying it.
As for your original sentence:
Hard to say for me whether it is “grammatically correct”. I’d have to look it up what “the rules” say.
It doesn’t feel wrong in a way an adjective ending can feel wrong or saying “Ich warte zu dem Bus”. I’d say it’s right in the gray zone between “not idiomatic” and “so not idiomatic, it’s consensus wrong”.
What’s the Italian phrasing you have in mind btw?
Hey Emanuel,
Honestly, your texts are the best content on learning german vocabulary that I have found. I already decently speak a few different languages (Portuguese, English, Spanish, French) so the etymological approach just makes it much easier for me to establish links in my mind between words and meanings.
I study vocabulary by researching the etymology and with these texts you spare me the research and on top of it you give native context on usage.
Thank you, thank you, thank you and keep up the good work!
Lucas
Vielen Dank für das tolle Feedback, ich habe mich sehr gefreut :).
Wenn du Etymologie magst, dann guck auf jeden Fall auch ab und zu mal in mein Wörterbuch, da ist viel.
Unser Team scheiterte an möglichen Chancen. Doras this work?
Grammatically yet, but I’m not sure if it means what you think it means. What were you trying to say?
Das Team scheiterte an unmöglichen Chancen: “the team failed against impossible odds” is what I meant to say. Mein Fehler!
Ohhhhh, “odds” in this sense is NOT covered by “Chancen”. “Chances” sounds like “opportunities” here.
Actually, I feel like contexts with “impossible odds” would be rephrased in German to something different, because it doesn’t translate well directly.
“thwart” was also originally a piece of wood! It still means a piece of wood across a boat, that the rower sits on.
Oh wow, it has come a long way then :D
Oh, I’d forgotten about that, but that’s true. Apparently the noun comes from the adverb/adjective, which means “across” (in the sense of “crosswise, perpendicular”). You also see “athwart,” mainly in nautical-speak, to mean “across the ship’s course.”
It’s related to quer.
“Der Versuch ist an der letzten Hürde gescheitert”. Does that sound natural?
Yes, but it sounds generic, because you’d have to know what the hurdle was and if that’s part of the conversation before then “dieser Hürde” is probably more idiomatic.
Cool article, and nice choice of word…
I have taken your offer of having an example corrected. I actually have two, hope thats not too “dreist” ; )
Der Wanderurlaub wäre an einem bösen Bären gescheitert, hätten Sie Bärenabwehrspray nicht mitgebracht.
Der Wanderurlaub hätte an einem bösen Bären scheitern können, aber in wirklichkeit ist er an fehlenden Karten gesheitert
The first one is perfect, if a bit “written”. It’s what I could see someone write on a personal travel blog.
The second one is grammatically okay, but a bit opaque as to what happened. Exactly… who went where, and how does the bear relate to it.
thanks for the feedback – the second one was supposed to describe this sort of situation although its of course not a direct translation: the downfall of the holiday wasn’t actually the bear encounter but the fact they simply forgot to take maps.”
Ah, well the German version has no indication that there was “the bear encounter”, it’s way more vague the way you phrase it in German.
Thanks for Awarded me scholarship. I am so grateful to you and to those people who contribute extra to manage This scholarship.
This opportunity help many student like me.
Sorry for my bad English
You’re English is fine :). Welcome und viel Spaß!
“You’re”: love it!
A man of class, I see.
My pleasure sir
Thanks
Glad to hear. Danke schön herr leher
Love the article, fun and simple. Very concise and informative. That’s all.
Bis Dann,
Long Do Hoang
Toll, danke für das schöne Feedback :)
Hello. A STAKE is actually a single piece of wood with one sharp end that can be pushed into the ground eg to tie your dog’s lead to, to stop it walking away or – as per your example above – to tie someone to and then burn them on a PILE of wood, or used like a dagger to pierce a vampires heart… (as the legend goes). B
Oh wow, I did not know that. I thought the “stake” referred to the pile, but I guess that was simply because that’s how it is in German. Thanks for clearing that up.
It’s definitely a bit weird in English: you’re “burned at the stake” (heck, I guess you’re not going anywhere, so you’re definitely remaining “at the stake”), but it’s the “pyre” that’s the collection of wood (or something similarly flammable) that’s set alight to burn a body. Stakes are also quite useful for tying up your tomatoes or beans, even if you don’t intend to burn them alive. Lastly (I hope), you can also “stake a claim”, which means that you can establish some sort of ownership or right to something. “With the recent landing, India has staked a claim to the vast mineral wealth on the dark side of the moon”. (Imagine driving a piece of wood into the ground with a flag attached saying “FriSt!”)
That last image is basically exactly it lol, people used to use literal stakes to stake a claim to a particularly bit of property. It’s probably older than this but what comes to mind for me is the various gold rushes and miners using stakes and rope to cordon off their areas..
Alles jut – schönes W/e! xxoxoxo Sido
“Nenn mich nicht Versager
So nennt mich nur mein Vater
Schon okay, lass mich alleine
Ich bin’s gewohnt, dass niemand da war, ja (ah)”
Sido lives kind of close to where I was before. He has a Penthouse at Stralauer Allee near Wilde Renate… this is probably super uninteresting for 99,99% of readers but whatever :). A bit of trivia!
I think you could just say “but it failed because of the unicorn safety door.” (What’s that made of, like triple reinforced steel?) “Founder on” is a little too complicated. Maybe even too figurative. It does sound pretty epic though.
And Bierlager….would that be like a beer warehouse? Or maybe a storage room at a bar? I think a Lager is probably kind of a big place, or at least has room for a lot of stuff, but I’m not sure what “range of bigness” it covers.
Hmmm, yeah, I guess “failed” is better actually. No idea why I picked “founder”, to be honest.
Good question about “Lager”. In this example, I pictured a rather big warehouse, but it’s completely contextual. Getränkelager can be that of a bar.
It has to be a room at least though. So a drawer for tools would not really be a “Lager”.
Oh and Unicorn safety doors… steel is not the best option as their horns can slice through that with Magic. The safest ones are made of wood coated with sobriety, honesty and humility. Needs to be thick layers though, otherwise the repellent effect is not strong enough.
I think you could make “founder” work if you were describing the attempt or plan as a bigger thing. “Foundering” is a more technical or older word for a ship’s sinking, so it just tends to sound like a big occurrence.
For the unicorn… maybe “was thwarted by”?
“thwarted by” gives the obstacle too much of an active vibe in the phrasing. To me, the focus is entirely on the attempt or the person attempting, and not on the obstacle “thwarting” it.
I mean, the message is the same, but this flip of agency would be a reason why I wouldn’t pick “thwart” in a translation task.
Totally makes sense – I’d be curious whether any other native Anglophones have a suggestion for “an etw. scheitern” that would be a functional equivalent. I think there are lots of workarounds, but “to fail because of something” (dict.cc’s first suggestion) just sounds a little blah, not nearly as punchy as “scheitern” to my ear.
For what it’s worth – and I’d also be interested in coleussanctus’ or any others’ thoughts on this – I think the English passive voice is a bit more, well, passive than the German version. To me, there’s actually a pretty big difference in vibe between:
and
The passive puts a good deal more emphasis on the unicorn as the one who didn’t make it past the safety door, rather than on the safety door’s success at keeping the unicorn out. Obviously, both are included in the meaning, but I actually feel like “to be thwarted / foiled / beaten” are pretty good functional synonyms for “to fail.” But maybe that’s just me.
“just sounds a little blah,”
That’s a GREAT way to put it. “to fail” is just way more common and a bit washed out. “scheitern” feels more defined.
Yeah, I think there’s a big difference between “thwarted” and “was thwarted by.” “Thwart” = the person or thing is active, they’re out to get you. “Was thwarted by” = I wanted to succeed, but something got in my way. Or something like that.
I wonder if “was defeated by” might work. “Defeat” in the sense of cause to fail or to be so difficult that you can’t do it. It has to be passive. The unicorn was defeated by the safety door, it was caused to fail, it couldn’t get past it. For me, that’s on the same level as “failed because of.”
Not sure if that works, but I think it’s a tad less blah than “failed” and maybe (?) not quite as active as “thwart,” “foil,” or “stymie.” Which I love just because they’re so colorful. And they’re really not that active in the passive form.
It’s definitely more business speak than everyday language, but at work we’ll often speak of “being blocked on” some obstacle or dependency. That feels similar to “an etwas gescheitert sein” to me.
Does it really imply complete failure though? Or is it more of a temporary hold off?
Good point, it’s more temporary, unless more context indicates otherwise
“scheitern” is definitely a completed failure, so not what you want in corporate at all :D
Did you get my email by the way?
I did – sorry about the delay responding!
“Thwart” is an interesting word. I wish I got more chances to use it. It just sounds right for the meaning. The sound combination is uniquely English. Maybe hard to pronounce for non native speakers though. I wonder if it’s up there with squirrel, world, and sixths.
Yeah, “thwart” is somewhat challenging for me, but not as bad as “months”. And the two worst ones, at least for me, are “generally” in an American accent and “Southside”. That gave me SUCH a hard time and I practiced a LOT.
It would be very entertaining as well as instructive to hear you mispronouncing these words and then correcting yourself.
Yeah, I can see how those could be challenging.
For “months“, the “s” is important. You want the tip of your tongue pointing down and touching your bottom teeth like this. That way you can make the “th” on the back of your top teeth and drop right into the “s”. The “n” is basically in the same place as the “th” and it’s very fast and light.
Think lazy mouth. Lips are neutral. Small movements. Only open a little for the vowel (unless you’re outraged).
Top level refining: make sure the vowel is nasalized. Touch your index finger to the base of your nose. Say m-o-n and hold each sound. You should feel buzzing throughout. It’s strongest on the “m” and “n”.
“Generally” is even more interesting because you’ve got several tricky sounds all in a row. An “r”, which is probably one of the hardest sounds in English, an “uh” (actually more like the Bulgarian ъ), a dark L, and a regular L. I don’t want to make this too long, but I have tips for that too if you want.
Wow that’s great advice and very specific. That’s online course material :)!
The tip about the tongue pointing down is a game changer. I used to do the “th” with the tip, but doing it with the upper plateau saves a lot of movement toward the “s”.
Nice… having played with it a little just now, the key thing to me with “months” is that in making the “ths” sound my front two teeth are pretty much scraping the top of the tip of my tongue, almost as if they’re cleaning it! So it’s just a standard, extended “th” sound followed by that hot tongue-scraping action.
But that’s really quick then, right? I mean, not really an “extended” th.
Yes indeed: it’s a super-quick, super-light scrape of the top tip of the tongue by the front two teeth! Not the most common mouth motion, but present in a few other words. The dreaded “eighths”/”ninths”/”tenths”/”twelfths” and friends jump to mind (“I ate seven eighths of the cake, and left the rest for my housemate”), as do a couple with “ths” in the middle of the word: “withstand(s|ing)” and “loathsome”. But the vast majority seem to be words ending in “ths”.
Great examples. All these are difficult for me indeed!!
Actually, I never said “yes”, so “yes”!! Please give me the tips you have for generally. I’m doing okay, but you can clearly hear that I have an accent there and I am a perfectionist so yeah… must improve.
“Months” is such a strange word. I just said it out loud to myself a bunch of times and I’m no longer convinced I pronounce the th at all. Munss?
100% same. I mean, I can enunciate it if need be, but I guarantee if you listened closely and ignored context you’d hear “munce.”
For German, rücksichtslos destroys my mouth.
I think there’s a short “stop” before the “s” for most English speakers even if they speak fast. So it’s not a pure “monss”. But yeah, it’s SUPER subtle.
Hallo llieber Emmanuel,
Ici bin an erste Frage des Quiz gescheitert .
Viele Grüsse nach Berlin .
Oh, dann bin ich nicht gescheitert, dich zu verwirren :).
Welche Antwort hast du denn gewählt?
Aber wie im Beispiel: Es ist keine Schande, etwas zu versuchen, und zu scheitern.
So lernt man, und jetzt weißt du, was “scheitern” heißt, für immer :). Liebe Grüße nach Paris!
Ich hatte gedacht dass man einen Project scheitert und man versagt etwas . Jetz weiss ich “Scheitern” in beide Falle möglich ist.
Ich wünsche dir einen angenehmen Tag in Berlin. Hier ist zu heiss, 36 ‘C !
Uff, ja, das ist sehr heiß, vor allem für September! Halt durch!
Hallo,
My example: “Ich hoffe mein Versuch, Typos zu korrigieren, ist nicht gescheitert.”
“the two Hollywood starts file for divorce” (the two Hollywood file for divorce)
“The attempts of the artificial intelligence at producing” (The attempts of artificial intelligence to produce)
“But you think of scheitern” (But if you think of scheitern)
“couple other option” (couple other options)
“This would fit well for really good sports team” (This would fit well for a really good sports team)
firewood is just one word
Bis bald!
Deine Typo-Korrekturen gelingen immer :)! (scheitern nie).
Und auch dein Beispiel ist perfekt!