Hello everyone,
and welcome to our German intensive summer boot camp.
Yeah, I know. You didn’t want this. You just wanted to relax, read a bit about a word, some examples, some history, some dumb jokes. But nope. Today it’s your turn.
So put on your sweatpants and get ready for a hefty work out about
Time Words
Or to be a little more specific
bevor or vor and other tricky words
Mixing up vor and bevor and also davor is a really common mistake; for beginners as well as advanced learners. And it’s the same story for nach, danach and nachdem.
Today, we’ll train exactly that… when to use which.
We’ve talked about this stuff in details in the mini series on time in German, particularly part 1, 5 and 6.
If you want to check those out, you can find them here on the course page.
But let’s go over it together real quick and see why we make mistakes and what we need to know to not make them anymore.
The theory
You can skip right to the exercise, if you’re confident. The purpose of the words I mentioned is to order things in time. We have two actions, A and B, and they don’t happen at the same time. Or in other words, one happens earlier than the other.
And there are two perspectives we can look at this:
- A before B.
- B after A.
The order of events is the same in both sentences. A is the earlier event. But we’re using different points of reference to express that.
Now, we have two points of view and two words. Just perfect, right? I’m sure you agree.
But German doesn’t. German is like
“I soooo need more words for this.”
Of course, you’re wondering why? And the reason is grammatical function.
There’s actually three ways to phrase a perspective.
- I brush my teeth after I eat dinner.
- I brush my teeth after dinner.
- I eat dinner. I’ll brush my teeth after.
And the colors kind of point toward the crucial differences.
In example number one, after connects a sentence, a verb. In sentence two, it connects an entity, a thing (dinner). And in sentence three, it connects nothing, but instead it is a stand-alone reference.
These are three absolutely distinct grammatical functions. The first one is a (subordinating) conjunction, the second one is a preposition and the last one is a temporal adverb.
If those jargon terms don’t tell you much, don’t worry. What matters is that you understand that you’re looking at distinct functions.
Because German, pedantic as it is, wants a distinct word for each function. That’s why we have to deal with six words in total
bevor and nachdem : connect a verbs/sentences
vor and nach : connect a nouns
davor/vorher and danach : a stand-alone reference
Now, if you’re not a you’re a real grammar nerd or you have a similar distinction in your language, then this distinction doesn’t come naturally to you at all.
And that’s exactly why we’re doing this exercise to you. The goal is not that you won’t make mistakes anymore, after. The main goal is to sensitize you for the difference. Raising awareness and understanding, if you will. Because once you really understand the distinction, you will start to “feel” it, develop an intuition for it.
Some of the examples are REALLY similar so the differences are really obvious.
Cool. So let’s paraphrase the distinctions again:
If before or after refer to something happening, then you need bevor or nachdem.
- before I go to bed
- after I wash my hands
If they refer to a noun, then you need vor or nach
- before dinner
- after class
And if before or after stand alone and refer to a prior sentence, or if they are combined with it/that, then use davor/vorher or danach.
- I’ll come. But before (that), I want to sleep.
- I eat. I’ll sleep after (that).
A special case are -ing forms in English, the so called gerunds. They tend to be translated to a normal sentence in German, but if they’re really just the -ing-form you can use a noun.
- Before eating I wash my hands.
- Vor dem Essen wasche ich mir die Hände.
- Before eating my pizza, I wash my hands.
- Bevor ich meine Pizza esse, wasche ich…
Vor dem Essen meiner Pizza…. grammatically correct, but no one talks that way.
Oh, and one quick word about vorher and davor which both mean before (that) and they’re pretty similar. Davor is more “pointy” and the real before that while vorher leans toward first. Like… I’m gonna do B but first I want to do A. If you mix these two up, it’s not a big deal.
Cool.
And now I think we’re ready to go :)
The exercise
I’ll give you a sentence in English with before or after (or both) in it.
Option one for you is to translate them to German.
You can use the text field for your version, but it doesn’t check what you enter :). It’s just so you can compare.
The solution is in the audio and you can also see it by clicking the circle O.
If translating them is too much, then just click the “?” icon and you’ll see the German version with a gap, so you just have to pick the right word.
Remember:
- bevor and nachdem are used for verbs
- vor and nach are for nouns
- davor/vorher and danach are used as a stand-alone
Viel Erfolg :)!!!
***
“You have to say that before (right away).”
“Das musst du ____ sagen.”
“Das musst du vorher sagen.”
“Yeah, but where were you after that? After you were at the bar…”
“Ja, aber wo warst du _____? _____ du in der Bar warst…”
“Ja, aber wo warst du danach? Nachdem du in der Bar warst…”
***
Yeay!!! You made it!!!
How did you do? Was it hard or easy? Where there any that you struggled with in particular? Let me know all your questions in the comments and I’ll try to clear them up there.
Hope you enjoyed this and see you next time.
Brilliant, danke. I didn’t even know there was a difference, at least for vor/bevor and nach/nachdem, far less understand or explain what it was. But now I do and I can. Well-explained!
Super, freut mich :)
Emanuel, ich denke, dass du der beste Lehrer in der Welt bist! :) danke
Danke :)
Vielen Dank, das ist sehr hilfreich!
Freut mich, danke :)
Some workout!
Yeah, it is. My apology, I actually forgot to mention the difficulty again like I promised.
Did you get something out of it??
The third category applies if you can say …beforehand or …afterwards
PERFECT!!! I’ll totally add that to the article! Danke :)
I’m SO very relieved to see that perhaps even a linguistic expert can get a trailing “t” and a “d” inadvertently switched around between individual words in the two languages! Presumably due to differing pronunciations. At least, that’s what I’m going keep telling myself even if there’s a different explanation, so don’t even try to dampen my elation by claiming fat-fingers … or …. you did it purposefully so that hard headed slow learning novices like myself might feel better about their progress, etc etc ;-)
Unless there’s a usage or meaning of the word I’m not familiar with, I think you meant “squats”, and if you did do it on purpose, you’re an incredibly ingenious and subtly supportive teacher! Thank you! I needed that.
“You have to sweat, solve tasks and do squads (optional).”
Ha… I am by no means a linguistic expert. And this one was was something I really didn’t know. Yes, I meant squats.
And there are PLENTY of other mistake and typos around the blog :). Lots of joy for you to explore!
(seperate, expensive, bred for bread… these are some of my most common ones)
Oh and of course “it’s” for “its”.
My fiancee is a native German speaker and this is a common error for them. She constantly mixes up words like ‘content’ with ‘contend’. I smiled when I saw ‘squads’ in the introduction because I know she would do the exact same thing :)
I did it well, but I translated some phrases very different.
My tongue hurts.
More of this, please.
Different translations are pretty much always possible.
If you’re unsure about some of them, share them here and I’ll give you feedback whether they’re idiomatic.
What about zuvor :(((
Indeed, I’d like to read about zuvor!
In fact, it was the only variant introduced by my first German tutor, and then when I changed a tutor it turned out that it’s not that widespread word. Actually, the second tutor didn’t know it at all.
That’s why I left it out of the exercise. It’s used in books and in spoken you can find it in combination with “nie” and “jemals” but that’s about it.
Same function as “davor” and “vorher, but less common.
I left that one out, because it’s very very rare in every day German. It has the same function as “davor” and “vorher” so technically, you can use it instead of those and have a correct sentence.
The only context I hear it in in daily life is in combination with “nie”
– I have never seen that before.
– Ich habe das nie zuvor gesehen.
I’ve seen it occasionally without “nie/jemals” – I kind of got the sense that it had its own place on the timeline of “before”-words:
[JETZT] – vorhin – vorher – zuvor – früher – [ANFANG DER ZEIT]
Maybe that’s a false perception, but it’s the vibe I got.
I LOVE YOU BERLINGRABERS! The timeline you gave above is brilliant – perhaps Emanuel can include it in his “oftenator”.
Damn, I need to make more of those. I just don’t feel like photoshop these days :/
My only difficulty was choosing between “vorher” and “davor”. Can you elaborate “pointy”? Does pointy mean you are referring to a specific incident?
Haha… yeah, my explanation about those two was kind of… short.
With “pointy” I meant that davor is the stronger pointer. It’s like “before THAT incidence (which we just mentioned).
If the incidence is blurry or drawn out like a Feierabend or being at a party, then “vorher” might sound better.
“First, I talk. The thinking comes after.
Erst rede ich. Das Denken kommt danach.”
If I use ‘nachher’ instead of ‘danach’, is it incorrect? If ok to use, would it be more general, further down the road, a not-defined “afterwards” as opposed to being items in a list: 1) i talk 2) you think.
good stuff as always !!
ps video on the you tube with u ass-kickin at prenzlauer was monstrously epic
Great question!
“nachher” is always referring to ‘now’ as in ‘time of utterance’, and NOT to event A.
So sometimes it might end up meaning the same but it’s absolutely not a synonym.
– Am kommenden Donnerstag werde ich zuerst reden. Das Denken kommt nachher.
– The coming Thursday, I will talk first. The thinking comes later today.
Awesome. This was my question, too. Thanks, Emanuel!
Etwas ähnlich
“Man weiß nicht vorher was man nachher denken wird”
Is this correct because it is in the future as in your example? Or is it perhaps wrong because it is not about something that will happen specifically after I am talking right now?
Thanks! Great work!
ME
Nice example!!
This actually works because of the pairing of “vorher-nachher”. I did not realize that when I said “nachher always refers to the speaker’s now” in my first comment.
When they come in a couple “vorher-nachher”, then “nachher” does have the meaning of “after”.
The infamous before after pic for instance is vorher-nachher-Foto, so here “nachher” doesn’t refer to the moment of speaking.
Hope that helps! Thanks for bringing that up, that’s an important use.
Greta test, I think I have it. In question 28 why is the “danach” not “nach” as it refers directly to the verb. It looks the same as in question 30 “vor”. Perhaps it is the location of the word, as it could possibly end with a different activity eg “before dinner or after …tennis”? But if we use “nach” this would make it clear that it refers to the dinner, no?
Great question!!
No, “nach” alone doesn’t work. “nach” as a preposition just can’t stand alone, and if you want to skip a noun, then you’d always skip the first.
– vor oder nach dem Dinner.
That works, but
– vor dem Dinner oder nach.
this doesn’t. “nach” feels incomplete and the sentence wrong.
IN English, we have an implied “it”.
– or after (it).
And that’s basically “danach”.
Oh and just to be sure… the words don’t refer to the verb here, they refer to dinner.
Hope that helps.
OK, now I’m curious: what’s the theoretical German word for “smoothie” that determines the gender of “der Smoothie” as masculine?
Oh, I think “das Smoothie” also exists, though it sounds just as wrong to me as das Cola.
I think (and that’s just my theory) the inspiration is “der Saft”. Also, there’s “der Lassi” and “der Ayran” and “der Jogurt”. So we have juice and a bunch of thick liquids being “der”… a cloud of masculine gender that covers a lot of the characteristics of a smoothie.
Oh and it’s der Drink, even though it’s das Getränk.
And Smoothie is English, just as Drink.
What a coincidence – I was just giving a German friend some grief about all the completely ordinary English words German borrows when they already have a perfectly good, normal, everyday word for that thing…
Do Germans think of “der Drink” as being something alcoholic? I feel like it’s looked that way when I’ve read or heard it in context, but wasn’t sure.
Excellent article! This kind of work is why I love your blog. The sort of “big grammar” one fi ds in class is important, but rarely did I have a teacher who would/could take the time for the nuances.
Question: is bevor not one of the words which kicks the verb to the end? Number 3 has the answer ending with: “…bevor ich anfange zu arbeiten”.
My answer was:
“Ich will einen Espresso in Ruhe trinken, bevor ich mit der Arbeit anfänge.”
Is the difference here that there is a zu + infinitive construction included, and maybe it’s one of the few times the verb would normally be at the end, but isn’t?
Nachdem das Einhorn Rindertatar gegessen hatte, bekam es BSE.
I really struggled with this but thank you. Good work out.
Nachdem das Einhorn auf Märchen-Wikipedia nachgelesen hat, wusste es, dass es immun gegen BSE ist :).
Hiya,
Typos:
“So get put on your sweatpants and get ready for a hefty work out about” (you have a get too many)
“I those jargon terms don’t tell you much” (if, not I)
Only two typos!!! I’m sure I’ll make a hell of a lot more mistakes when I attempt the exercise (which I won’t do yet, as I’m swamped with work at the moment!)
This is a GREAT article, time stuff is really tricky and here you’ve made it easy!!!
If I have doubts (which I’m sure I will), I’ll ask you when you do your next post :)
Oh, and does this mean you have now finished your time series?
Bis bald!
Did I finish the time series? Not really :). I actually still have to cover a few prepositions but more importantly do more exercises about time words.
But yeah… I’m slowly approaching the location series :)
Hallo Emmanuel! Vielen Dank! Bevor ich diese Úbung gemacht hatte, kannte ich nicht den Unterschied. Die war zwar sehr nützlich. Nur eine Frage: In 4 habe ich “du musst ja davor sagen” geantwortet. Ist es egal?
Jeden Tag, vor und nach dem Abendessen, übe Ich mein Deutsch. Vorher, habe ich nicht so oft geübt, aber nachdem ich den Blog von Emanuel entdeckt habe, fand ich den Prozess des Lernens viel interessanter. Nach diesem Kommentar werde ich weiterüben, aber nich bevor ich einen Espresso trinke ;-)
Wow, super :D!!
Zwei kleine Korrekturen:
KEIN Komma nach “vorher” und lieber “übe ich Deutsch” als “mein Deutsch”. Ist einfach nicht so idiomatisch.
Vielen Dank ! :-D
Hallo Emanuel,
Was ist der Unterschied zwischen sich entscheiden und entscheiden? Die beiden, meine ich, bedeuten to decide.
“entscheiden” by itself can only be used if there’s an established “question” in the sentence or conversation
– Ich habe das entschieden.
And it sounds a bit formal. Managers and politicians “entscheiden” something.
As soon as it’s about personal opinion, it sounds better with “sich”.
LOUSY at translating! Could only translate the first one and first part of the last three. Pitiful. HOWEVER: I got most of the bevor/vor etc correct. Only “switched” the answers to 8 and 12. Trying to pound it in now, but seems like it’s a feeling that will hone itself with time. It was a GREAT work-out! Thank you!
Merci Cher Emmanuel et idem pour ton adorable assistante. Je trouve très injuste de critiquer ton travail de maniere malveillante . Des termes lamentables et pitoyable ( Lousy, Pitiful ) sont mal placés . Vous apprenez l’allemand et non anglais americain . Je souhaite le préciser.
Excellent travail et merci sincèrement.
Personne ici ne critique le travail d’Emanuel. Amerikanerin a dit qu’elle a eu des dificultés avec la traduction, pas Emanuel!
De plus, tout le monde fait des petits erreurs et c’est pas du tout mal de s’entraider, même quand it ne s’agit pas de l’allemand!
So you speak French, too? And VERY well. Are you fro Canada? :)
Merci beaucoup pour me défendre :)!! Mais il n’en ne pas besoin, en fait. Amerikanerin voulait dire qu’elle est terrible à traduire mes phrases. Moi meme, j’etais confus par un moment apres aver lu la premiere phrase mais ce n’est qu’elle voulait dire. Je la connait un peu car elle est une fan de tres long temps… alors, tout et bien. A part de mon Francais. Les lettres me manque et la grammaire aussie.
English summary:
Ahmad thought Amerikanerin referred to my translations with “lousy” but she meant her own. Ahmad wanted to defend me, I cleared it up :)
Man, I’m really at a loss as to where you really are with your German. The tasks you described that you had to do in school sounded incredibly hard and advanced and now you say you fail here?
Did you really botch it or did you just have different , less idiomatic versions?
Thanks Elsa!
To clarify: I could not translate the English into German. Botched it totally, ‘cept the first one and the last 3. Although, I DID choose the correct versions of before/after once I had Emanual’s German translations.
As far as the tasks at uni, well, they are FAR too advanced for me and to be fair, not really representative of the two terms of uni they’ve given us. How they expect us to manage on this level considering what they’ve given us is beyond my comprehension. Gimme a couple of hours and a dictionary, I can write a few sentences but left to my own devices, forget it. I can’t even correctly tell a friend that I’ll be back in Hamburg at the beginning of next month. Or that my train is arriving on a specific date and time. Pitiful.
Wow, that sounds like a colossal waste of time then :/.
It is. So was weeping about it for approximately 10 days after term ended. New Attitude. New Strategy. Pass auf, because here I come!
Sehr gut. Sehr hilfreich. Danke.
Danke dir!!