“Rise and don’t shine!”
Hello ihr alle,
German Advent Calendar, day number 5, and behind today’s door is actually a little correction.
Or let’s say improvement, because it’s not really about a mistake but about a phrasing that many learners use that’s actually not as idiomatic as they think.
Are you ready?
The thing I am talking about is:
Using “scheinen” too much
Yeah… I’m sure many of you are like “Wait, I think that might be me.”
And yes, it’s really a quite common glitch.
So, the verb scheinen means to shine, as in the sun is shining. And it also means to seem. Which makes sense if you think of it in the abstract sense of emitting an aura.
Now, to seem is quite common in English and I’m sure it’s the same for its translations in other languages, because it’s just a really useful “concept” in daily life.
We perceive all kinds of things, but we’re not always sure about them. And so we say lots of stuff like:
- This seems quite difficult.
- You seem to be tired.
- That doesn’t seem to be fair.
And because the dictionary says to seem is scheinen, many German learners say things like this:
- Das scheint sehr schwierig.
- Du scheinst müde zu sein.
- Das scheint nicht fair zu sein.
But the thing is …
“scheinen” is NOT a good choice for these everyday statements.
It’s not wrong, mind you.
It’s more like “too good”.
You see, scheinen actually sounds fairly high register in German, and it’s not really made for mundane everyday statements.
And this is even stronger for the past tense.
- That didn’t seem to be a fair price for a coffee.
- Das schien kein fairer Preis für einen Kaffee zu sein.
The English sentence is pretty neutral but the use of scheinen in the German one is a bit like an elven princess in a white gown showing up at the stables shoveling horse turds along the common folk. I mean… it’s nice that she does that.
But it’s not really what you’d write as an authentic looking scene.
And you shouldn’t use scheinen if you want authentic sounding spoken German
Again… it’s not wrong. And in writing, this is totally okay. People would write this on their travel blog, if they want to sound a tad bit literary.
But in spoken German (or in chats) it sounds odd and it makes your German sound a little more “book learned” and a little less “native”.
So what to say instead?
Well, there are several options actually.
One option is aussehen, which puts the focus on what you actually see.
- Das sieht schwierig aus.
- Du siehst müde aus.
Then, if you don’t want to focus on seeing that much, you can use wirken.
- Das wirkt sehr schwierig.
- Du wirkst müde.
This puts the focus more on the overall appearance something has, including vibe.
But what’s also a common option how people express this is using glauben in the simple sense of to think.
- Ich glaube das ist nicht fair.
- I think that’s not fair.
Of course it’s not exactly the same as the sentence with to seem, but the broad strokes of the message are the same. You say something about how you perceive the world but you also say that you don’t know it for a fact.
So yeah… check in with yourself how often you use scheinen and if you find that you use it for mundane everyday statements like the examples here, try weaning yourself off of it and instead start using one of the alternatives I gave you.
Let me know in the comments what you think and if you’re one of the people who use scheinen regularly as to seem. And let me know if you have any questions or any particularly examples where you’d like my feedback on whether it’s idiomatic or not.
Again, it’s not wrong, and you don’t have to avoid it entirely. But it’s not as common as you think.
That’s it for today. Have a great morning, afternoon or evening and a great start into the week and I’ll see you all tomorrow :).
How about anscheinend? Is it often used in speaking and/or writing?
It is used for sure in writing and also in spoken, yes. Not too common in spoken and it does sound a bit distinguished.
(It’s probably just me) I have a habit of saying “Seems so” rather often and the German version of that is “Anscheinend so”, I should probably control this habit. Could you perhaps suggest a few friendlier alternatives?
You mean as a stand-alone? Like… someone says something and you say “Seems so/seems that way”?
“Anscheinend so” absolutely DOESN’T work that way. Either just “Anscheindend” by itself or “Scheint so.” or “Sieht so aus” (looks that way). I always use the last one.
Thanks :D
Es scheint als
Es scheint als ich diesen Fehler schon immer gemacht habe. Mein deutschsprachiger Lehrer hatte quasi fragend geschaut, aber keinen Kommentar abgegeben.
Yeah, if you want to use “scheinen”, you need to say
– Es scheint, als ob ich diesen Fehler…
or
– Es scheint, als hätte ich diesen Fehler…
But that’s VERY high register.
Really helpful having these pointers on what to avoid.
Very helpful article. I didn’t realize scheinen also meant “to seem” so thank you for helping me dodge that linguistic pit
I really appreciate information like this. The literal translations are almost never “exact” and this puts things at a much more “comfortable” level of speaking.
Good to know! Just another of those multitudinous occasions when the simple and obvious is not really simple and obvious … like we needed another one, lol.
German language right now:
“Note to self: Hugh Warren wants another one.”
Cool article. Definitely been using scheinen like “seems”. Gonna try introducing wirken into my active vocab in 2023!
Make sure to also have “aussehen”. That’s the more useful one overall, I would say.
I am pleased to say aussehen already is : ) Did you notice my question on the “aussehen” article by the way?
Oh, I think I haven’t. Hold on…
Great to know, even if it feels like it makes translating the really useful word “seems” a little hairier: I’m certainly guilty as charged with regard to “es scheint…”, and even used it in a youtube comment yesterday. “Er scheint so unglaublich süß und schön.” Die Schande! I guess “Er sieht… aus” would be the more conversational version of that?
((It just “feels” like such a good fit to my super-non-natively attuned ears. Es gibt…/Es ist…/Es scheint…/Es sollte…/Es macht…./Es lohnt sich… Aah well: I guess I can happily weed that one out from the list!))
Anyway: a few quick questions…
(1) Does “erscheinen” have the same sort of feel in terms of usage, and hence also need avoiding in everyday speech?
(2) What would you suggest as an alternative for the “coffee” example: “That didn’t seem to be a fair price for a coffee.” Maybe “glaube”? “Ich glaube, das war kein fairer Preis für einen Kaffee”? But that seems to turn it from an almost-passive-sounding sentence into much more of a personal opinion. To be honest, I think that might be the reason some of us cling too hard to “scheinen”, like some kind of security blanket: “seems” just has a nice neutral, speculative sort of tone in English, meaning you’re not overcommitting yourself to an opinion.
(3) Is this (ab)use of “scheinen” something that you’ve noticed more of late? I only ask that because I didn’t see any mention of it in the two most closely associated articles I found on your site (those on “wirken” and “Schein”), and the latter even contained a couple of seemingly conversational examples with “scheinen” as “seems”.
Yeah… that is EXACTLY what I meant and why I wrote this article :D!
About your questions:
1)
“erscheinen” in the sense of seeming is even less common in daily life than “scheinen”. But you can hear it in the sense of “appear on the scene”, though it does sound a bit technical/stiff.
2.)
I could also see “Ich finde…” but yes, I’d very much phrase it as an opinion. Or as fact, with a disclaimer
I can’t think of a less “personal” way to express this, actually.
Question though:
Does it really feel differently to you to say “I think this is not fair” vs “This doesn’t seem to be fair.” ?
Maybe “it seems” is just what people are used to and there’s no deeper underlying reason.
By the way… in a conversation, Germans might “hedge” their statement with “halt”.
3.)
Yes, I have particularly noticed it in the Easy German discord and it was getting on my nerves :D. The article about “scheinen” is one of the very first ones, maybe even first five, and it urgently needs a face-lift. I wasn’t really aware of the scope of this whole thing back then. I just wanted to pick a word and quickly explain what it’s used for. That then escalated quickly though.
Thanks very much for the answers: good to know I’m 100% the correct cannon fodder for this article ;-)
Regarding 2.) Yep, those two definitely have a bit of a different vibe for me: but the good news is that I think that “halt” in German is the perfect equivalent-to/translation-of that difference. It’s a sort of “hey, as we all know, the price of that coffee was outrageous”, rather than “I judge that coffee price to be ridiculous”. You’re basically just verbalising what (you hope) everyone else feels about it.
As for 3.) Haha… I’m willing to bet that it’s one of those things that is self-perpetuating in such environments: as above, “seems” is a really nice hedge word in English, and allows you to express an opinion without it *seeming* like you’re necessarily claiming that opinion as purely your own. In some sense it’s just a more *polite/indirect* expression. So “halt” (at least in spoken German) might just turn out to be my new best friend (now that scheinen has been brutally suppressed): be careful what you wish for!
I may well be wrong, but it seems like it might be not the worst idea (doing my best attempt at parody of British indirectness) if I gently (still going) implored you to (re)read this addendum to my article on “halt”:
https://yourdailygerman.com/halt-meaning-particle/
There’s an preemptively apologetic quality to it, that I am not sure you want.
And “halt” needs to have something to reason for or answer to.
So you can absolutely NOT see a price of a coffee and say
But you could say it after
A very welcome recommendation, delicately suggested via several levels of indirection: how could I possibly refuse? You’re 100% right, that’s not at all the (side-)effect I’m seeking here, and I’m calling a big, fat *halt* to the beautiful friendship I’d envisaged. Particularly if the use of “halt” in German is at all similar to the blight on the English language that is “like”. ((Yeah, I’m, like, super old and grumpy, but, like, focusing on, like, the most amazing, like, conversations is like, not something I really, like, *like*. It’s actually, like, really, like, annoying, but, like, incredibly difficult to, like, tune out from once you’re, like, sensitized.))
I must admit to finding the whole universe of scheinen + seem + appear/appear_to_be + aussehen + erscheinen + wirken +… to be fascinating, even if it’s somewhat difficult for me to delineate why, or to successfully navigate along the currents and counter-currents flowing between English and German. So it’s going to be a longer term project!
Your command of “like” is impeccable, good Sir!! Makes you appear 10 years younger! One correction though… in a context like this the proper spelling of “you’re” is “u r”. And it is custom to end the section with “idk”.
Seriously, I feel like “like” is actually in a slight decline. Or I am just desensitized at this point. I remember it going on my nerves really hard a few yearss ago. now, stuff like “bro” and namsayn'” is on the rise. Or just a simple, honest “uh, erm” – Elon Musk is doing his part to bring that back.
Thanks for the great explanation! I had made a note to myself in the past that «aussehen» is better for “to appear, seem”, but naturally I had forgotten!
At the risk of getting a previous German teacher of mine in trouble, I had encountered the following phrase in a certain reading comprehension text about a traffic jam («über einen Stau»):
«Der Verkehr schien besonders an diesem Morgen sehr dicht zu sein.»
Was this usage of «scheinen», especially in the preterite, a bit over the top, as we say in English? Or was it ok because it was a written story, told mostly in the preterite?
This use is totally fine because, as you said, it’s a written account of something. But I doubt someone would say that just randomly in spoken, unless they’re giving a presentation about their journey or something.
The examples with wirken were particularly helpful. Thank you!
I have a detailed article about it with more examples, if anyone is interested:
https://yourdailygerman.com/meaning-wirken/
Scheinen is my go-to when translating on Duolingo and they frequently offer an alternate translation that includes one of you suggested verbs. Now I know why. Thanks.
Great topic, and so very well written in English. I am one if those who thought it idiomatic to use scheinen and realized it’s not thanks to your article. Thanks a million.
LOL
Buchstäblich
Toller Artikel, meine Lieblingssorte, vielen Dank! Using Wirken like this is new to me. „Es scheint mir“ will be relegated!
Perfect, it won’t be missed :)!
I mean… the phrase won’t be missed. Not “it won’t be missed” in the sense of “it will be noticed” :D
So interesting! What about „Es scheint mir…“? Is that also wonky?
Yes, it’s not wrong, but it’s just not common in daily conversation.
Super interesting as always, I had no idea about this formal sense of scheinen until now (although I knew we could subtitute it for aussehen).
Learning about using wirken (never thought of it having that meaning) or glauben (which I previously thought would have been the be too formal version, as “I believe this is difficult” in english sounds a lot more formal than “This seems difficult”) was also good to know. Thanks!
Really great article. I love the way you wrote this, and it’s really helpful as I tend to avoid using “scheinen” because I hear it used so infrequently. Now I know why.
One small typo I noticed: “I mean… it’s nice, she does that.” There shouldn’t be a comma after “nice.”
Wow, interesting that you actually noticed that it’s not used that much!! Good feeling for the language!!
Bisher der beste Tag von German Advent Calendar.
Ich glaube, ich verstehe es jetzt besser.
Kannst du ein Beispiel dafür geben, wann „scheinen“ muttersprachlich klingt?
Vielen Dank.
:).
Im Ernst, ich glaube, ich benutze scheinen fast nie für “to seem”. Es ist nicht falsch, wie gesagt. Einfach ein bisschen zu “gut”.
Hello,
Es sieht aus, dass es nur ein/einen? Typo heute gibt!
showing up at the staples (showing up at the stables)
Phew! I rarely use schein, I use mostly aussehen and glauben, although I don’t think I’ve ever used wirken (actually, I though that one was high-brow unless we’re talking about medicines having an effect)!
Bis morgen!
You don’t really have to start using wirken. It’s not super high brow and there are some contexts where people would use it in daily life, but it can also sound a bit stiff. I think your intuition is pretty good, so just follow your nose :)
A great class way back was German Romanticism, I had no idea of Tieck, Hoffmann, usw before then – mucho Spaß. One verb that stayed with is dünken. You pop that in a sentence at a wine party, and it usually gets a chuckle.
“Mich dünkt, ich hör’ ein ganzes Chor / Von hundert tausend Narren sprechen.” JWvG
Yup, but only use it for comedic effect, like in your example :).
No one uses that unironically, it just sounds too theatrical.
I like “vorkommen.”
Deutsch kommt uns schwer vor.
Hmm, that sounds a bit strange to my ears. It’s too momentary for this context and “vorkommen” often has a slight notion of “false impression”.