Hallo ihr alle,
wie geht’s?
Don’t worry. I’m not gonna start doing list posts here. I actually need your help with something.
What’s going on
A language school recently emailed me asking me to spread the word. I was like “Yeah, that’s gonna be 50.000 dollars.” and they were like “Oh. we were thinking like… for free.” and I was just like laughing at them.
Okay not really. I actually thought that was a good idea. Not doing just promo but doing an honest and objective review of the school with a little surprise for you. I asked them if they’re interested in this kind of thing and they said yes, so I decided to give it a try. Now, how do you review a language school. The best would be to sneak in undercover and take a course and be a really complicated student. Maybe some day I can do that. For now it’s gonna be a little less investigative. I’ll check out their offers and prices, visit their rooms to get a feel for the vibe and, and this is the most important part, do a little interview. The idea with behind the interview, or lets call it a questionnaire, is to give you guys an impression of the school that goes beyond the facts you can find on the webpage. What kind of people are working there? What’s the vibe? Does it “feel” right? It should be more than just some stock Q and A like
“What’s your teaching philosophy?”
“We at Generic School 1423 believe that teaching is always also learning.”
So boooring. I have some different questions in mind. They will hate me for it :).
But I’m not a German learner. You are. You know best what questions you would have for a language school. So let’s draw up the questionnaire together:
What questions would you want ask a potential
language school before making a decision?
All questions are fine… Can I make a certificate at the school? If your school were a person following a specific diet, would it be Paleo or Vegan? And what’s with the stupid colors? Meh… the last one is probably not a good example. But seriously, let me know all your questions, even the really crazy ones, in the comments so we get a nice pool to chose from and I also know what to look for when reviewing the school. Oh and let me know what you think about reviewing schools. Picking the right school can be really tough if there are a lot of choices, but on the other hand I know that most of you are NOT in Berlin, so maybe it is super boring. But I don’t know. And we have a really cool set of questions we can do that with any language school really.
So, I’m really looking forward to your questions and I’ll see you all later this week with a real article.
Bis dann und danke!
UPDATE:
I sent the school the questionnaire I compiled with your help (here it is) and I haven’t heard from them since. Well, one intern told me that the intern who contacted me wasn’t working there anymore and she would be the new intern and the people who could answer the survey were still on vacation and so on and so on.
Maybe they are all very busy and forgot. Or maybe they just wanted some cheap promo and shied away when they saw that answering learners’ concerns actually takes some time. Either way, the school is the Sprachenatelier in Berlin.
If you’re now like “This school seems awesome” then you’ll find it on Google.
PS.: A big thank you to the people who have donated recently. You’re awesomazing! And to Youssef: German will stop bullying you eventually :). It just tests your patience. Seriously, danke!!
Gruetzi! I don’t have a question for the Mystery Language School, but a preference: I want a class situation where there is a lot of conversation and discussion about real world situations. The instructor is there to guide the conversation and make frequent corrections. I also prefer when a new word is written down on the white board so I can see it. I’m a visual learner, so I like to see what I’m learning, and then put it to use in a conversation.
Oh, and thanks for a great site. I enjoy reading your posts, although I admit that some times you write more than I have time to read in one sitting. Still, better too much than too little information!
I second this. My vocabulary and understanding only started to increase since taking on reading real world material. I am reading Krimis, along with reading an article or two from Der Spiegel every day. The only thing missing is an immersion opportunity to hone my listening skills and my speaking skills. I am considering a German language school here in the US.
Yeah, reading is really THE best thing you can do. At any level (well, except absolute beginner). People often plateau between B1 and B2 because they don’t read enough. For German, at least.
A billion percent agreed… for any language… to me, it’s the only thing that can take you to second language level without it taking 10 years living in the country.
The odd thing is that for English, which is my second language I barely did any reading at all. I had 9 years in school after which I was barely able to give directions (though lots had been seeded in my brain to bloom later) and I couldn’t understand movies at all. I learned it by listening to rap and watching movies with subtitles . But reading… some in university but that was slooooooooow and cumbersome.
I think English is a bit special in so far as that it has a comparatively small every day vocabulary. You need to know a lot of idiomatic uses of course but all you gotta do as a learner is add uses to verbs like “put”. German is difficult in that regard because the vocab people use is more diversified. Like… you use this verb for that aspect of getting and that totally different verb for the other and then that one for the third. I had a friend who could converse fine and his grammar knowledge was top notch. I talked him into skipping the B2 level to go straight to C1 (after B1.2). He could hold up but it was hard work for him and the reason was… vocabulary. Only vocabulary. He had a new list for of new words every day. And they didn’t read crazy stuff. Just magazine articles.
I guess had I really cared about English in school and read a few books I could have gotten to my current level much faster. And for French and Italian I basically did 60% reading, 20% rote learning of vocab, 10% listening and 10% grammar (no exercise, just theory). And it worked perfectly.
Agreed!
English is definitely a special case… it’s supposedly one of the easiest languages to learn, since it’s so simplistic.
It does have its subtleties as well though, which one can’t really learn as such, but has to find out through exposure – like, what do you say in this situation or in that situation… what kind of response is expected by each group you’re speaking to… how do you insinuate something, and how do you specify subtle tones (especially in writing). I think that really goes for any language.
German is especially tough in that regard… maybe because it’s such a dynamic language – in that you’re (I’m) often fooled into thinking you can put this word and that word together and it’s still gonna work. People are gonna understand you, but they’ll immediately know you’re not a local. I mean, at least there’s a billion different dialects, but if you don’t have the intonation and melody for it, no one’s gonna fall for THAT excuse – hehe, such a shame!
My experience in learning English was quite special though, so for that language I really can’t say… there was just too much input to know which one helped best. In German, I’ve definitely noticed an improvement though – a bit after I finished reading the first book (Erebos – which was §%$%§$ hard in the beginning), I noticed a huge improvement in my word and phrase vocabulary. There was an even bigger improvement with the next books – the Sanctus trilogy by Simon Toyne. I find it fascinating how that works. But again, special case, since I’m living and working in Germany – so maybe it all plays together in that the book serves to create the connections in my brain. Keine Ahnung.
It’s all great though, I think – reading, listening to music, watching TV (super good and super hard LOL). And oh gawd, I don’t think one can avoid Grammar in German. At some point I’ll buckle up and read through my Grammar books and through your Grammar posts ;)
Does the class include activities outside of the classroom? Projects? Homework? Are classes all-day or an hour two per day?
Are there any extracurricular activities, like city tours or excursions?
On a scale of one to ten (with ten being extremely and one being not at all) how practical is your German Language school and what factors contributed to your rating?
How strict the professors are towards students? It often happens that a group of good students has one slacker who is constantly ruining the mood and getting on everybody else’s nerves for not willing to fully commit and participate. If professor is not strict enough, that will pass unnoticed and other students will suffer.
Very interesting point!!
Is the program conversationally based or traditional 4 skills approach (reading, writing, listening, grammar)?
How much grammar study is done?
(Basically, if I want to know how to speak German am I going to be able to do so better after the program or not?)
Is there an entrance test so we will be grouped according to ability? (An intermediate-advanced student doesn’t wantlots repeated for beginners)
I think this is an interesting topic. I am the incoming Treasurer at a local German School (Saturday mornings only) and this year at our campus we more than doubled our Adult student count from 6 students at an intermediate level to 19 students between beginning and intermediate. We would like to split our classes but was unable to find another teacher willing to work Saturday mornings.
What city is your school at… maybe somebody reading this is looking for exactly that (though it would be quite the coincidence)
In class now, so I’ve got some suggestions. Doubt they’ll tell you all this, but it interests me.
Quantitative:
# Students / class (avg., max)
cost (per mo., per hour)
what level do they teach up to (c1 or c2?) and do the teach to the tests (specifically train the teachers to help students pass testdaf or the other one)
[b1 integration may be a joke, but the other shit is not.. for me at least]
retention rate.. through b1, b2, c1, c2? (no one gives this, so I assume it would be abysmal, but hey..)
Qualitative:
Teachers: how many, how much experience, do they teach the same book/which? (or no books at all?), how does the place encourage a healthy environment for the faculty? do they fraternize with eachother? their backgrounds?
how much do they charge for coffee?
doppelgingered here, do they teach for tests, shamelessly
do they hold people back? (important because language school is a joke often, with teachers repeating the same shit. I should know because I’m one of the idiots who is sometimes grateful that the tests dont mean shit)
what makes them special / what are they trying to achieve?
sit in on a class perhaps.
Wow, never would have thought about retention rate of students but that is actually REALLY interesting. I’m definitely gonna ask that. Thanks
How often will the instructor be listening to us speak? Small-group or partner-work is well and good, but if we’re students talking with students we can’t know how to correct each other! Best case scenario we don’t learn what’s right, worse case we pick up someone else’s bad grammar.
Oh, I agree… the last language course I had was Finnish and I really hated these “discussions” in small groups. It always felt like a waste of time, because there’s basically no authority to give you feedback.
I totally agree with this – this has been my experience too. You kind of try to speak for a bit, then it fizzles out because you all run out of words.
What are the backgrounds of the students of a typical class? When I took some classes in Vienna each class was made up of students of many nationalities and while a good many did speak some English, some didn’t and so the teacher and us students had no choice but to use German, however basic, which really made the class all that much better.
How much of the language’s popular culture is included in the lessons? Meaning, tidbits of information which greatly enhance one’s self confidence and hence the fun of traveling to the target country or countries which speak the language. Examples: Eiswein. Bierstube. Weisswurst. Usw.
I believe language learning is a full-time job …. so here is my question.
Do you have a plan or a vision or a brand new approach which can make the German language(for example) a part of the my life?
Nice one!!!
Based on my (fairly long-ago) experience of language school, as well as that of colleagues more recently…
– What sort of students are your bread and butter? (Is there a German equivalent for that? I mean to ask what sorts of students are the ones the school relies on to pay the bills, what its “staple” students are.) How diverse is any given class likely to be? What are most students here to accomplish?
– How much flexibility do teachers have to set the pace or emphasis of class sessions? Are they required to cover certain material or work through a specific curriculum in clearly defined time spans?
– Basically, do you teach the tests or the language?
– Is the coffee any good? Or is there somewhere close where you can get good coffee?
– How much teacher turnover do you experience? (That is, how often do you have to replace teachers?)
I also like the questions about extracurricular stuff, excursions, etc. But I think I’d be most concerned to know what my chances are of (a) being in a class with students who are also trying to actually become functional adults in a German-speaking context, as opposed to hungover Swiss kids, (b) having the same teacher(s) for any length of time, and (c) getting instruction that is shaped primarily, for better or worse, by the quality of the teacher(s) more than by the policies of the school.
I’d be interested in knowing if the courses have a rigid time span and speed, how much emphasis is placed on grammar (for example if you first learn to speak and then later or in between learn the rules), how long it usually takes a good student to achieve proficiency.
I like the method used in many international schools (using things from imagery to music), since it’s extremely efficient (fluency in under a year).
Most importantly, I’d want to know if you speak and converse from the get-go.
Love your blog btw. Rock on!
Oops I didn’t mean to post it as a reply, but as a standalone comment :)
Ps.: I’m a huge fan of mango languages. I think their method is amazing and it works wonderfully for me.
Never heard of that yet. Maybe it’s worth a review. Their image film is a bit generic I have to say… what is it that makes it work for you?
Oh here’s the link btw, if anyone wants to take a look:
https://www.mangolanguages.com/
Really? That’s cool, then, I love introducing it to people! I’ve followed it and used it since they were in Beta, way back in 2007. I’ll try to explain it (Achtung: very long, gushing paragraphs ahead) :) I think an important thing to highlight is the purpose of Mango… it’s not a course where you go to learn eeeverything about a language and its grammar. It focuses on getting you to speak and understand the language as quickly as possible. But by the end of the three courses, you should be pretty comfortable with the language, and be able to speak fluently. They basically teach through real-life usage. It starts off very simple and gets you to internalize the most basic words and verbs. And during the next chapters, starts putting those together with other words and challenging you to mix them into new sentences. Grammar is taught implicitly via usage, with a few explanatory comments here and there. The other key to it is repetition. Sometimes ad nauseum. But what I find great about it is that you don’t just stupidly repeat the same thing – in the beginning it’ll repeat and repeat, but afterwards they only ask it again precisely at the point when you’re forgetting it – to make the knowledge [more] permanent. In the middle of the repetition is where those challenges come in. Basically they ask you “How do/would/do you think you say xxxx in a formal/informal setting to a man/woman?”. This is to both: make you aware of gender, formal/informal, etc usages; and to make you internalize the words/verbs by making you use them in a new way. What works for me is basically all of the above. It’s utterly fascinating to see how well it works (for me at least). I studied the first few chapters of greek back in 07 and could still remember a lot of it years later. As every course though, you have to be consistent about it. I personally like an hour or at least a chapter a day. — So now that I’m done gushing about it, ’cause I do honestly love the damn thing – you can always try the first chapter of every language, though as I said, that’s gonna be very simple… you start seeing the genius of it in the later chapters. The good thing is that it’s subscription-based nowadays… it’s like 20 dollars a month, which give you access to all languages. Back in the day it was about 200-300 for all 3 Units. In the US, there’s also libraries which offer it for free. Wrapping up, I’d definitely recommend it to anyone wanting to travel somewhere and be able to do everything in the local language, or as a starter to then polish off at a more traditional school or using books. I think it should take you to a B1 or B2 by the end of all units. I shamefully admit I still haven’t finished a full course – I… Read more »
Thanks for these insights:)
@Mayer: I like the sound of that. I think the repetition is really important. I’m struggling with not having really bedded down my early vocab before having to learn heaps more, so I feel like I’m going backwards now.
Great questions. Especially the one about “bred and butter” students is really interesting, I think. In summer, there’s a surge of young Europeans flooding into Berlin to party… and learn some German in a one month “kind of intensive” course. I had a student once who was taking a course in July with 25 students. In September they were down to six, same school, same teacher, just with the “stop over students”. I would recommend not to take a course in summer because that’s when schools basically try raking in the rent for the winter.
I don’t think I’ve ever heard a language school specifically targeting adults that are serious about the language. Maybe that’s a niche worth exploring … we could call it “Managerman” :)
“Do you teach the tests or the language?” – Best question I’ve read so far. A “grading orientation” and a “learning orientation” are not in fact related (one could be self taught), plus, the focus on grades only, creates an “addiction” for the easiest possible tasks, not that grades shouldn’t exist -don’t get me wrong- but it shouldn’t be the main focus when you’re teaching something… This blog for example gives me no grades (You have no power here Emanuel…lol, joking) but I learn a lot reading it. Anyway, I think that question summarize my point of view, but that’s just my opinion. I hope it is not a super hipster opinion though. Thanks berlingrabers, that was really deep…lol. Greetings!!
A- , well done Alan
Hah. In your face :D
LOL. This comment reallt made me laugh.
really*… I’m a bit drunk, sorry
“bit drunk” is really no reason to apologize ;)
I learned Spanish for a while at a local school here in Chennai, India, and had to drop out because there wasn’t a quorum for them to continue to the next level. And when I tried to go to another school, they had a different set of levels and would not accept my certificate. So my questions would be:
a) What is the minimum number of students you require to conduct a class?
b) Is my certificate transferable to another school?
2. Do you have native German speakers as teachers?
How much real-world material is used in class? (I’d much rather work using short news articles rather than stilted fake dialogues — that feel dated pretty much as soon as they’re printed — from textbooks.)
How committed are the teachers to using only German (or, for beginners, as much German as possible) as the language of instruction? (I really hate when teachers give in to those students who can’t be bothered to formulate their questions in German, even partly — I’ve had this even in a B2-level class!)
How much leeway do teachers have to incorporate suggestions from students into the syllabus? (If none of us want to learn German for business, but we have other suggestions for topics, can we skip the chapter on office German?)
When it comes to the question of German only vs. English where necessary, people seem to be really divided. Some want NO English and plenty of schools advertise their using only German. But other people (me included) HATE it when teachers try to explain meta stuff in the target language, when it would be so much quicker in English (or whatever is the language everyone understands). That only applies to beginner level though… using English in a B2 class is ridiculous.
I don’t know how to phrase these as questions, but here’s my take. I took multiple years of French in high school and college and the classes were always a huge breeze for me, because it was just memorizing words and phrases. What I’ve found difficult about learning German on my own is there is more to language learning that just memorizing literal word translations. The hardest part for me has been “thinking” in that language. Currently, while I’m doing well at reading and writing I’m struggling with speaking and listening, because there isn’t a time limit to a reading a book, but there when listening to someone talk. I currently hear words, translate them in my head to English, think of the response in English, translate it back to German and talk. This makes conversations very difficult and if they say more than one sentence at a time I can’t keep up, because I’m still working on translating the first spoken sentence.
I would ask what they do to help you actually SPEAK and UNDERSTAND the language as opposed to just memorize lists of translation and grammar rules. Specifically, so that you can understand real people speaking and real speeds. A lot of the audio books and software programs I have used only give you one slowed down sentence at a time. I haven’t found any software that really challenges you to understand multiple at once. The Goethe Institute has some ok stuff. I did like the Michaela in Deutschland series.
Somethings I found useful in language learning so far:
– One of my college French professors made us record us speaking on cassettes and turn them in and she graded how well we pronounced words. Proper pronunciation is very important when speaking a new language.
– Michel Thomas’s audio book courses do a great job of explaining how words are formed and the meaning inside of the parts of the word. This blog does a good job of that as well. To many courses just drill words into your mind with straight memorization. This is great for studying for a test, but like my French when you don’t use those words you quickly forget them. I aced all of my French classes, but I remember very little today. Some of these German words I learned by understanding their underlying meaning and how they came to be I will never forget.
One bad thing about sit down language classes is you have to learn at the pace of the slowest learner. What would a course offer to help you excel and move forward a rapid pace compared to other traditionally taught classes?
Your comment made me remember a thing we had in school called “Sprachlabor”. There, we did essentially that… record ourselves and the teacher would grade it. I really hated it back then, going through puberty with the voice and all, but I think it’s a good idea. Pronunciation doesn’t get enough attention in my opinion. Knowing flow and rhythm of a language can make a huge difference in speaking and hearing.
I’d want to know the motivation of most of the students in the class. I’ve been in language classes where most people are there for college credit vs. other classes where most people want to learn it because of family, cultural interest, etc. For me, I’ve found language classes more effective if I’m surrounded by others who are genuinely interested in the language and culture, not just taking a class for credit.
How seriously the school takes assigning students to different classes. Many language schools organise class groups based on what is convenient for the school rather than assigning the appropriate level, with negative consequences for students of all levels.
Will new students be admitted to the group midway through the course – this can be pretty disruptive.
The policy on homework – if the school takes homework seriously and actively discourages students from failing to hand in assignments. Many schools have a lackadaisical approach to this, at best, and the result can be that no-one bothers to do homework. A clear policy on homework benefits everyone (in my experience)
I’d want to know what topics and registers/situations (informal, formal, academic, etc) they’re covering, because language isn’t one-size-fits-all. Do you want to get around as a tourist? Or read German philosophy? Or for work? These would be very different things. OK so reading philosophy is not a beginner course, but a course which is at least pointing you roughly in the direction you want to go helps.
Also, with an interest in linguistics, I love lots of grammar stuff, but that isn’t everyone’s cup of tea. (And to be honest I don’t think it has done as much to help me actually speak as would just practising conversation with someone who is fluent.) So that’s something I’d ask about – but which answer you want depends on who you are.
I hate all the testing-for-the-sake-of-testing, which seems unavoidable at formal institutions with bureaucratic requirements. I’d rather have things like: regular Hausaufgabe of writing a few paragraphs, a quick short answer test which is marked in class, a 5 min conversation with the teacher. So I guess I’d want to know what kind of testing they do, and whether it’s aimed specifically at helping the learner by giving them feedback on what they know, or is it more about ticking a box to satisfy bureaucracy.
I am attending a B1 course at VHS. This is the first time I ever sit in a classroom to learn German, but I started to learn on my own 2 years ago, using internet resources like DW, Slow german, LingQ and of course my favorite blog German is easy. My classmates at VHS have been together since A1. I am ahead of them in comprehension, reading speed and pronunciation, but I have gained a whole lot of confidence to speak. Fortunately I have a native speaker teacher.
When I was looking for a school, I was interested in – Mündlichen Deutschkurs – Einstufungstest – Muttlersprachler Lehrer(in)- Spät einsteingen möglichkeit- Zertifikat B1.
This is the reply I got from a private school:
Liebe Eva,
danke für Deine Anfrage. Leider haben wir kein mehr mündliche Deutschkurs. Wir bieten nur Intensivkurs Deutsch. Ja er kann einfach am 3. September einsteigen. Sie wird diesen Einstufungstest schreiben wenn sie kommen wird.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Wait, is that literally what they replied? Because there are some serious mistakes in there which a school should NOT do :D
Yes, I copy-pasted the message… :/ even I could pick those mistakes!
Obviously I didn’t attend that school.
Oh wow. I kind of didn’t want to say how wrong the message is so as to not hurt your feelings in case it had been your translation :). But now that I can speak freely… the message is AWFUL. It’s “Google-translate-bad”. I don’t even understand where some of the mistakes come from, they’re so random and bad.
hi, so I’ve been reading comments here and I read the letter, and did my best to make sense of it, but you guys say it has serious mistakes and I didn’t notice anything, so that shows how much of a beginner I am haha. can you explain what is wrong? I don’t want learn these mistakes thinking it is proper german :)
btw this is what i think the letter says, i didn’t cheat
Liebe Eva,
Dear Eva
danke für Deine Anfrage. Leider haben wir kein mehr mündliche Deutschkurs. Wir bieten nur
thank you for your question. Sorry, we don’t have (?) German (course) anymore. We offer only
Intensivkurs Deutsch. Ja er kann einfach am 3. September einsteigen. Sie wird diesen Einstufungstest schreiben
intensive-german (course). It starts September 3 . You will take a placement test
wenn sie kommen wird.
if you come.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Cheers,
Okay so here it goes:
– Liebe Eva danke für Deine Anfrage. (ok)
– Leider haben wir kein mehr mündliche Deutschkurs.
grammatically correct would be: Leider haben wir keinen mündlichen Deutschkurs mehr.
Actually correct (idiomatic, fitting) would be:
Leider bieten wir keinen mündlichen Deutschkurs mehr an.
– Wir bieten nur Intensivkurs Deutsch.
correct would be: wir bieten nur einen Intensivkurs Deutsch (an).
– Ja er kann einfach am 3. September einsteigen.
(who the hell is “er”… maybe that would be clear if I had the mail before)
– Sie wird diesen Einstufungstest schreiben wenn sie kommen wird.
(whaaat, now it’s a she? It was just “er”? Something ain’t right there. Also: “diesen Einstufungstest” … which one? They haven’t mention one yet so you can’t use “diesen”. There’s a comma missing before “wenn”. Idiomatic and fitting would be “Sie wird am ersten Tag einen Einstufungstest schreiben.”)
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Well, I guess that wasn’t THAT much but the few ending mistakes are nothing a native speaker would ever do, the pronoun switch from “er” to “sie” is awful and the mail as a whole just makes a bad impression.
cool, I did notice the he -> she and since it didn’t make sense, I just figured er and sie must’ve meant it. thanks for helping me :)