Hello everyone,
and welcome to our German Word of the Day. I hope you are all well and awake ’cause this time we will have a look at the meaning of:
erst
But first, a little story.
An elephant once went into a bookstore. Soon he drew attention to himself; not so much because he was so large and gray and had a long hose hanging out in public but for other reasons than that. He, the elephant, picked a book, a novel I believe, written by that one author, who had done such a thing before. The elephant, he, opened the book at a random page, some say it was page 154, and, after reading a few lines, opened another page to do alike. His halo of indecision shone so bright, that the sales person, his name was long, couldn’t do but leave the shade of his desk and walk over to counsel our gray friend, certainly in anticipation of a good sale.
“May I help you Sir.” the guy asked.
“Oh hopefully… I am wondering about this book. The trailer was enticing, but reviews expressed mixed feelings so… is it worth a read and if so, should I read it in 3D?” the elephant asked.
“Well, it really is an interesting and entertaining piece of writing … the only flaw is, that the introduction sucks.”
‘Hey… JUST like this article’ you might think now… and right you are. But would you rather have me start right away with the explanations without any build-up? You would? Oh… ok… uhm fine.
Erst, ladies and gentlemen our Word of the Day erst
erst as in “not second”
Most people who have studied German have seen this word and know it’s … first meaning: first as in better than second.
Ok, to be precise, what people likely have seen are things like erste, ersten, erstem, so erst with an ending. which ending to put depends on the case, the gender and the preceding article… aren’t you glad that you’re learning German sometimes :)… anyway, let’s not get lost in Grammar land and just look at some examples.
- Das erste Date.
- The first date.
- Der erste Kuss.
- The first kiss.
- Mein erster Eindruck.
- My first impression.
So erst behaves just like any other adjective when you put it in front of a noun… BUT… erst is not normal. Erst is not one of them. Erst looks like a normal adjective very often but … it’s not. Without all those e-es-em-en-things, erst is a lot of things, but not a quality. Why? Well one of the reasons is this. For a normal adjective like schön, I can use a phrasing like the following:
- Die Blume ist schön.
- The flower is pretty.
Schön has no ending here, the word is used in the basic form. This doesn’t work with erst. Erst seems to be what schön is but it is not.
- Thomas ist erst.
This doesn’t mean anything in German. People will wait for you to continue talking as your sentence is clearly not over yet. You haven’t said anything specific. And no, you have NOT described Thomas in any way. Erst does not simply mean the same as erste/n/m/n/r... it is not just the basic form, by meaning that is… by etymology of course it is. In German you cannot just be first… you have to be A first or THE first. English is a little less strict right there in that you can omit the article and say:
- Thomas is first (although it doesn’t sound very nice to me maybe).
But in German this doesn’t work. So when you want to use erste in sense of first in sense of better than second… you NEED to say something like THE first.
- Thomas is der erste.
This is fine. This is complete now and we learned something about Thomas. Thanks to the article… with these articles comes one of the many many … many endings. So to wrap this part up, here some more examples:
- Das war mein erstes Mal in Paris.
- That was my first time in Paris.
- Ist das das erste oder das zweite Bier?
Das erste. - Is that the first or the second beer.
The first.
So… now that we know that erst alone DOESN’T mean the same as erste,n,m,s… what does it mean?
Erst and time
If we take a look at the English first, we’ll see that, standing alone, it is also used to order things in the time domain.
- First comes first.
- First we take Manhattan, then we take Berlin.
(whoever explains these lyrics to me and knows the song this is from gets to select one German Word of his or her choice, that I’ll explain)
First doesn’t do all the work alone however… it has a whole family – the Firsts. There is King First the 1st also known as … First of All, than there is Queen Firstly the … 2nd and then their first-born, the little Prince Ed First, who is about to… change…. (get it? get it?) and they all live.. guess where…. in the first place… BAA DUMM Tishishishisishish… … …
sorry… I …I think I had one too many … puns for breakfast.
So… German does have a First Family too… … … hey I can’t help it okay… this shit writes itself…. so… I don’t want to get into too much detail but the 2 words that are most important here as translations of first besides erst are erstens and zuerst.
Erstens is used whenever you talk about a list, that is NOT time related… for example a list of reasons. Here a (rather complicated) example.
- Ich will nicht ins Kino, weil ich erstens kein Geld habe, zweitens morgen früh aufstehen muss und drittens eh nur Scheiße kommt.
- I do not want to go to the movie because first of, I have no money, second, I have to get up early tomorrow and third, there are only shit-movies anyway.
Zuerst on the contrary is used to start a time-list.
- Zuerst trinke ich einen Kaffee, dann putze ich mir die Zähne und ziehe mich an und dann gehe ich los.
- First, I drink a coffee, then I brush my teeth and then I head out.
But what about erst? Can it replace erstens or zuerst in these examples? Well it can NEVER replace erstens … it just can’t. As for zuerst… well although there is a certain overlap there is a difference between zuerst and erst as well. Zuerst starts a time-list of things that has usually MORE than 2 items. Like in a recipe for a cake. Erst has a different feel to it. It does tell you what is done first, but the notion is really the contrast between 2 things. What is done first, and what is done after. Saying erst is really like “I’ll do this but before that/ first I’ll do that.”
- “Wollen wir eine DVD gucken?”
“Gern, aber erst muss ich das Kapitel zu Ende lesen.” - “Should we watch a DVD?”
“Sure, good idea, but first, I have to finish reading this chapter.”
- Heute nach der Arbeit fahre ich erst zum Frisör und dann nach Hause.
- Today after work, I’ll first go to the hair dresser and then I’ll go home.
So you can exchange zuerst and erst without doing too much damage, but it might feel a little strange. The focus of zuerst is a real listing, while the focus of erst is the contrast between first and after that.
That is why erst is also a good translation for at first (or related things like initially or in the beginning).
- Ich dachte erst, Theater ist langweilig, aber dann war es doch sehr unterhaltend.
- At first I thought theater is boring, but then it actually was quite entertaining.
Erst also often teams up with mal. Me personally I think that there is not much of a difference in meaning… adding mal just makes it longer and less abrupt, thus maybe reflecting gradual changes better than a mere erst.
- Maria ist immer erst mal ein bisschen schüchtern, aber sie wird schnell locker.
- At first, Maria is always a bit shy, but she loosens up quickly.
- “Wollen wir frühstücken, Schatz?”
“Oh, jetzt noch nicht, ich muss erst mal richtig wach werden.” - “Should we eat breakfast, darling?”
“Oh not yet, first, I have to really wake up.”
Anyway.. there are many words in German that can be used to express approximately the same idea as zuerst and erst… zunächst,anfangs, anfänglich, zu Beginn, am Anfang, als erstes, eingangs. I can’t discus all of them in detail, but I wanted to mention them anyway. Why? To show you that there are many alternatives to erst… or a little more direct:
Try not to use erst that much to translate the time-first.
If you use erst in the appropriate situation, like in my examples, that is perfectly fine. But don’t just use erst for everything, just because it is the shortest… erst is not quite as universally applicable as the English first. And why not? Because… sadly for you… it has other meanings.
erst – the messy backyard
Erst has other meanings than just first, and those are actually toughalicious… tough to explain but also tough to wrap my mind around. I’ll just go ahead and give you some examples.
- Ich habe heute erst um 8 Feierabend. (for Feierabend look here)
- Ich bin erst 3 Wochen in Berlin.
Now try to translate those using first… or something related… it doesn’t really make sense.
Here are the translations of the 3 sentences… with a strong focus on the tone.
- I won’t be out of work before 8 today.
- It’s only 3 weeks so far, that I am in Berlin.
So… turns out the easy-looking erst is actually one of those infamous particles like doch or schon… meaning a lot of things at once.
Now is there any way to capture this erst? A student suggested that it means only. But is that really it?
- Heute bin ich erst einmal angerufen worden.
- Today I have been called only once (so far).
- Heute bin ich erst um 2 aufgewacht.
- Today I woke up only at 2.
In the first example it obviously works, but in the second it doesn’t … it might be understandable but what the German sentence REALLY feels like is this:
- Today I didn’t wake up before 2.
So… is there a catch-all translation? I have thought quite a while about this, and the best I can come up with is this:
erst is the opposite of already.
A German word is the opposite of an English word? Sounds weird, but it is the best way to explain erst… the German word for already is schon, which has MANY MANY meanings. So schon is not of much help. But already is.
Let’s have a quick look at what already expresses. Already is used when we talk about a process or sorts and something happens earlier or is “more” than was expected …
- Wow man it is already 10 o’clock.
- I was in Paris 10 times already.
- Please wake me already at 10.
So, the first sentence expresses that we thought it to be earlier, and the second expresses that I consider 10 times a lot. And erst is the exact opposite.
- Wow, es ist erst um 10.
- Ich war erst 1 mal in Paris.
- Bitte weck mich erst um 10.
The first sentence expresses that we thought it to be later, and the second tells you that I consider 10 to be not that much and that there are more to come. There is not really one word for this in English, but think of the opposite of already. Let’s do some more examples.
- Ich bin erst 3 Wochen in Berlin und habe schon so viel gesehen.
- I have been in Berlin for only 3 weeks (with many more to come) and I have already seen so much.
- Maria ist erst 20 Jahre alt.
- Maria is only 20 (implied: “still pretty young”)
Now the last 2 examples were actually translated using only… and erst CAN be a translation for only… but only if we are talking about a process.
- I only have 10 Dollar. (no process)
- Ich habe nur 10 Euro.
- I have earned only 10 Dollar so far (with more to come). (this is a process)
- Ich habe erst 10 Euro.
So erst always has the notion of an ongoing process, a notion of time… that is important to keep in mind if you want t translate only. That’s why it would not fit into ” I have only 10 Dollars.”… there is nothing time related there.
Anyway… thinking of erst as the opposite of already will save you all that extra thought. Here are some more examples.
- Das Konzert hat erst um 9 angefangen.
- The concert didn’t start before 9. (which is quite late)
- Heute habe ich erst einen Apfel gegessen.
- Today I have eaten only an apple so far (which is not that much)
- Ich habe erst vor einer halben Stunde gegessen.
- I just ate half an hour ago. (so it is not so long ago actually and it is just right not to be hungry yet)
And now let’s do a real tinker.
- Ich habe erst um 7 Zeit, weil ich erst noch meinen Artikel fertig schreiben muss, und ich habe erst die Hälfte.
- I won’t have time before 7, because first, I have to finish my article, and I only have half of it so far.
So… I hope you can see, that erst doesn’t always have to mean first so don’t get confused when you hear erst in a weird context and don’t use it without knowing what you do… because it might be confusing. It’ll certainly take a while to get used to this word , especially to the more “abstract” meanings as it does NOT have a one word translation, but it’ll come over time… and speaking of overtime…we have been on air for too long yet again and I … oh no… I see we have a call here… I guess 2 more minutes won’t hurt… so … Hi Olga from Poland, have you enjoyed the show?
“Hi Emanuel, yes I did… I didn’t know these last things you explained so that was pretty interesting.”
Cool, glad to hear that… so Olga, what can I do for you?
“Well I read something really weird the other day in a German magazine and I was wondering, whether it is a typo… it was er-ste-res. Does that mean anything for real?”
Ohhhh… that must look weird for someone who is learning German… glad you brought that up. Well this really is a word actually… and it means das Erste – the first… it is just a weird way to say it without the article… the way I perceive it is that it is erster as “more first ” or “firster” if you will plus the case ending. You may also see ersterer, erstere, ersterem and so on… My explanation is nonsense of course as you cannot be “more first” but anyway… that is how it feels to me. German has 2 more of those words, zweiteres and letzteres. Based on my idiot explanation those would be the more second and the more last or the laster…
“And what does that mean?”
Ersteres basically means the former… zweiteres and letzteres both translate to the latter. There is no such thing as dritteres or vierteres, but you could actually say it.People would probably find it witty.
“Do you have an example maybe?”
Of course…
- Gestern haben sich Angela Merkel und Michael Jordan zum Abendessen getroffen. Erstere ist die Kanzlerin Deutschlands, letzterer ist eine Basketballlegende.
- Yesterday Angela Merkel and Michael Jordan met for diner. The former is the chancellor of Germany, the latter is a basket ball legend.
“Cool, vielen vielen Dank. Tschueessss.”
Bye Olga… And that was our Word of the Day erst. It can mean first but it can also mean the opposite of already . It is used a lot on German,especially in the second sense so try to grasp that.
If you have any questions or suggestions just leave me a comment. I hope you liked it and see you next time.
Hi Emanuel,
I have a question. Can we consider erst to be ‘just’ and erst um to be ‘just before” in the places where it means the opposite of already?
Hmm, no, it is more like “not before actually”. The erst in “Ich kann erst um 10 kommen.” means that I will not make any earlier than 10 and it also carries some info, that I consider that late. “Just before 10 ” would mean ” a tiny bit before 10″, which is not what the “erst” does here.
“I won’t make it before 10 (unfortunately)” is a better fit to the German example… I hope that helped a bit
Oh! Ok. Thanks for the clarification :-)
First off (erstens!), I recently discovered your blog. I’ve only read a few posts but it has been very enlightening and helpful :)
Second, I had a few questions about translating the example sentences. They all have to do with the same type of idea regarding the use of ‘erst’.
1. “Ich habe heute erst um 8 Feierabend.” Could I also say, I won’t be out of work until at least 8 ?
2. Your example “Bitte weck mich erst um 10” had an English translation of “Please wake me already at 10,” but that didn’t really make sense to me. After reading through the other examples, does it mean something like “Please don’t wake me before 10” or “Please don’t wake me until at least 10” ? Something with the idea of being woken up at 10 or anytime after that ?
3. Similarly, “Das Konzert hat erst um 9 angefangen,” doesn’t indicate an exact start time, just that the concert began at or after 9 (but not before 9). So could I say “The concert didn’t start until after 9?”
Thanks for your help^^
Hey Ashley, thanks for your comment. Glad you find this helpful. So your questions:
1) Yes, it is about the same idea. However, “erst um 8” means that you will have Feierabend at 8. It doesn’t imply that it could be later. So you could say the German sentence also when you know that 8 will definitely be the time you get to leave.
2)
This is a bit confusing in the post but all 3 German sentences are the exact opposite of the English ones… not translations. So the English version would be the one you suggested:
– Please don’t wake me before 10.
But it kind of also means that you want to be woken at 10 sharp and no later… erst just indicates that this is unusually late.
3)
Same here. Erst does not imply (and never does) that something might have happened later. It means that the concert started at 9 sharp and that the speaker find this kind of late… maybe because usually concerts start earlier, maybe because it was scheduled to start earlier, maybe because he or she was there already at 6 and had 3 hours to pass without anything to do or any other option….
So… erst does not imply anything like “not before then and maybe even later”… it just gives an opinion on how the speaker finds the exact time. Hope thats helps. If not, keep asking :)
“Ich habe erst um 7 Zeit weil ich erst noch meinen Artikel fertig schreiben muss, und ich habe erst die Hälfte.” when it comes to languages i’m a very abstract thinker as i have found that to be the best way to go about it since no languages can ever be 100% directly transkated. as such i have a proposition on a possible translation / interpretation of the sentence above that can reduce the workload when trying to understand the use of “erst” – but only if you’re already an abstract thinking person. having read a couple of your posts i get an impression that your also quite abstract at times. anyway, i wanna know what you think about it and if it can help me (German learner) undersrand it better:
the basic idea is that all the “erst” words can all be interpreted as “first” but in different ways.
“Ich habe erst um 7 Zeit…” – “i have FIRST at 7 time…” , insta-translation in my head, here is rearanged: “7 is the FIRST TIME when i have / will have time…”
in other words. 7 is the very FIRST MOMENT when you get the time that want to have and because it is the first moment when your HAVING the time, it automatically means that the time is running since time never sits still in real life.
“weil ich erst noch meinen Artikel fertig schreiben muss,” – “…because FIRST, I have to finish my article,…”
no change needed here
“…und ich habe erst die Hälfte.” – “…and i have FIRST the half of it.”
this is how my abstract mind thinks of it, which i understand but i doubt other people will so here is the extended version: “…and i have AS A FIRST the half of it.” more extended: “…and i have AS A FIRST PART OF IT the half of it.” more extended again: “…and i have AS A FIRST PART OF THE WORK DONE, the half of it DONE.” i know this looks long and complex but you gotta remember that my abstract mind sees “…and i have FIRST the half of it.” however it understands “…and i have AS A FIRST PART OF THE WORK DONE, the half of it DONE.” in other words, no i’m not siting here drooling while deep in thought trying to figure out meaning of “erst” in that context :) it happens quick, i just wanna know if this interpretation WORKS as an explanation / translation so i could use – even if noone else can understand it but me (i know i’m selfish :P)
Oh you’re right… I love abstract things in language…. doing a little mind yoga can explain SOOO much sometimes :)
And what you’ve said makes a LOT of sense and it is actually where the word comes from… from “first”.
So it is a fine theory … the only thing missing is this “only” aspect of erst.
– Es ist erst um 5.
I can’t really make this work with “first” in my mind … if you can please help :)… but then there is the opposite:
– Es ist schon um 5.
I think I have elaborated about the couple schon-erst in the article on schon. And “erst” often carries a notion of “only” while not being translatable as only. Schon is the direct opposite of it. So erst expresses the speakers opinion as to how progressed he thinks something is measured by SOME standards (his own, society, custom). Erst expressed “not much” while schon expresses “quite an achievement” but it totally depends on context which one is more in numbers… wow… I am being complicated right now… I’ll just try with an example
A little problem with the “first” approach is that is sounds like an achievement…
“I have AS A FIRST PART OF THE WORK done one tenth.”
That sounds (to me) like a rather glad statement… like you have achieved something already although there are still 9/10 waiting… erst doesn’t sound like that at all in that example. Erst sounds more like “Maaaaan, that took soooo long, and there is still sooooooooo much, I am sooo slow, this is gonna take forever”.
Don’t get me wrong… the “first”-approach works great for some examples and it is certainly useful to explain “erst” to others… but you need to add the notion of “only” to it or an important part would be missing…
Anyway, sorry for this really unstructured comment and thank you so sooooo much for taking the time and sharing your thoughts… I am sure, your comment will help other people and it is always great to flesh out things some more :)
yeah, “erst” carrying the notion of ONLY is certainly missing in my explanation.
“I have AS A FIRST PART OF THE WORK done one tenth.” while it doesn’t sound (in my head) sound like a glad statement but rather “this is what i have done FIRST” sort of like directly answering a common english phrase “Let’s see what you have done FIRST, then we can ….” which is a question of general progress instead of “Have you done the FIRST part?” which is asking for a specific ammount of progress. so it’s really more of a description of overall progress but with this translation the idea of “ONLY” is completely left up to the listener to decide. the listener could say “he has done one tenth, only that much” or “he has done one tenth, ok.” , i mean with my translation it’s not directly implied that it’s “ONLY that much done”. unfortunatelly it didn’t carry (in my head) the full meaning “Maaaaan, that took soooo long, and there is still sooooooooo much, I am sooo slow, this is gonna take forever”. thanks for clarifying :)
off to learn some vocab. got anny tips for that? any particular article you can direct me to on your website? (i know i haven’t read them all i’m a terrible person :) )
(i already have a system of my own, but i’m open to everything and anything if it helps speed it up)
Hah… when it comes to vocabulary I think I am really out of the ordinary. my system works like this:
I bombard myself with an incredible amount of new words (100 at a time) without context, without examples and without any order. I repeat that over and over until it sticks.
The reason for this is that I think when it comes to vocab, quantity is king. If you throw 100 words at you and 20 stick that is more than if you go for 20 with nice examples and context and stuff and you remember 17… there will always be stuff you forget. I don’t pressure myself in any way so if it takes me 20 repetitions for a word… who cares… other words are done after 2 times. For French I just read books and wrote list after list with German-French pairs (no context). I always add words to a list that I know, and such that I kind of know. This way, I don’t get totally frustrated because I will always have moments of success and accomplishment. And I also put the same word on more than one list without hesitation… if it is important like for instance “trotzdem”… why not. Then I repeat 2 lists over and over and when I know them I take the next one. For Italian I used one of those 1000-flash card boxes and I made piles… in the beginning of some 50 words… at the end I had 3 piles with 300 and I would just repeat like a machine in the subway or on the toilet.
It has worked great for me and I really believe that quantity is king. You need about 2000 words to really use a language. You won’t ever get there when you spend your time with collecting examples for EVERY word. Just throw stuff at you… what sticks sticks… what doesn’t stick… well, no hard feelings…just throw it again… and no number pressure… just make it many :)
Oh and try to avoid all word you can sign… like hammer or apple… this is just a waste. You can point at a tomato but you cannot gesture the words despite or meanwhile in any way…so THOSE should be priority… not the everyday nouns they give you in textbooks. Nouns are useless compared to verbs and functional words. Anyway… I haven’t really ever heard from anyone, doing it the same way and all advice you find in books is always about connecting, examples and context and so on… but to me well.. I know the words in my language so I have plenty of context there already. I just need the way to say that in another… and also, context bores me… learning all body parts at once is just so straining for me :)… anyway… it takes a little training to do this but if this method works for you then it is worth it to go through the initial “my god”… I think I can learn vocab really really fast without being immersed in any way… oh but read books along the way :) reading is king too. All right.. I am gonna stop now or I’ll keep preaching for days. I love the method, for me it works, but everyone is different. If you try it, let me think what your thoughts are … even if you think it stinks :)
before i even try it, i gotta a question about the list composure.
how do you get the 100 words? i mean, what’s your source. i mean, the danger is always there that without the context you may be learning something that you don’t need. some languages have like a TOTAL vocabulary of 2000 words (forgot it’s name, some indian language) but in a language like German with hundreds of thousands of words if you’re not carefull you can learn 5000 “useless” words i.e. words that are rarely used or even seldom understood, instead of learning the 2000 “core” day to day words.
also some words have multiple meanings depending on the context. however only one of those meanings is the “core” meaning and all others are secondary and possibly very rarely used. how do you know which meaning to pick without context?
i’m confused by what you’re trying to say with the 100 words that you learn. you say that if 20 out of em stick then it’s grand, but then you say that you repeat the word 20 times if necessary so that it sticks. so you’re implying that you repeat the words as many times as necessary, but then that means that you learn all 100 words, they all stick. i mean, if you learn them till they stick shouldn’t you remember all of em instead of 20?
just a question about time as well, if some words take 20 times to repeat, then how long does the whole ist of 100 take?
lastly, i’m not sure i agree with you on avoiding nouns you can sign. sure you can point at the tomato IN A SHOP, but you can’t make a shopping list (even verbally) by hand gesturing that you want tomato, apple and orange. they all have the same shape and you’re not even in the shop to point at it. unless you’re talking about the actual Sign Language, i’m not sure how you suppose to get around that.
anyway, your method is certainly unheard of which is why i’m eager to find out more, thus all the questions :)
Ok, so I’ll answer one by one :)
Where do I get the words from:
– Initially I just collect words I deem crucial by just thinking what I use most… that is of course I, you and all this but mostly things like see, hear, learn, understand,, think, stand, hold, go, as well as all kinds of conjunctions and prepositions like although, during, while, before, after… and of course the corresponding adverbs, there, here, then and so on. That makes for maybe 4 lists with around 50 words each. Then I start reading. There are these language learning novels with easy language and I use those as a start. Those are tailor made to only contain useful vocab and I look up everything and I maybe take 80% on the list. There might be some words where I think “meh… I don’t need/want that” so I’ll just ignore it. And that’s it… reading books.
then, what about useles words:
– In those easy books you will find only few words that are useless (mostly nouns). Once you start reading “real” books (there are also simplified versions of Kafka or something… those are challenging but feasible) you come across all kinds of weird rare words … I tend to keep my 80% ratio though, so I will learn words I will never use… why? Because first of, chances are that they will reoccur in the book and also to really broaden your vocab you have to have a lot of random words in it :)… and it alway impresses people when you pick some really specific verb rather than the generic prototype like gehen, machen, sein or something
How long does it take to learn a list:
– Well, I haven’t done it in a while but usually I had 6 lists. 2 were like the “yeah, I pretty much know those” 2 were the “ork in progress” and 2 were “oh my god, so many new words” Then, I would carry 2 or 3 with me, one of each category and repeat them sometimes in a park or in a subway or in a cafe… note that I do not ever count how many words of a list I know or how long I have been working with a list… some go fast, some take longer, sometimes there are a few tricky words on it which I will then just put on new lists… anyway, at some point a list gets boring and I can pretty much just say it without though up and down. Then I’ll “file” it and start using a new one. I’d say one week per list is a fair average when I work with it every day. And then I know maybe 55 out of 60 words by heart. I’ll have to repeat the list 2 weeks later and see what has disappeared and either add it to new lists or reactivate the list. On a side note… the lists I am creating while reading are NOT the ones I am learning… I just create 4 or 5 lists while reading and then I put them away and take them whenever I need new ones.
On a list is about 10 words that I do know and 10 words that are on different lists, as well.
But anyway… bottom line… because I don’t count anything I don’t know how long it takes… all I know is that it is a lot at a time. I mentioned the 20 vs 100 example mainly because some people try to do like 20 words a week or something. That puts them under pressure if they can’t remember 1 words because they will have to move it to next week and then the yonly learn 19 new words and all that doesn’t feel like very much and so on… I really don’t pressure myself in any way. I just expose myself to a lot of words repeatedly without any specific deadline or anything. I do make an effort to remember them but if I can’t, I don’t care… oh and one important thing:
I always train this way: find the target language. I NEVER cover the German side and look at the French word trying to find the German translation. That is a waste of time, in my opinion. I look at the German word and I need to remember what that is in the language I want to learn… because ultimately I want to actively use things… not just understand.
What about words that have several meanings
That applies mainly to verbs and it is a tricky thing. For a verb like “to stand” I would write down the main translation and that’s all.. it doesn’t make sense to write down all the combinations with prepositions. Most of that s guessable so long as you know “to stand” so I just pick it up during reading. Slowly to stand will get a shape in the multidimensional space of meaning and I will get w feel for how it overlaps with the meaning-bubble of the main translation.
For the words that have like 3 meanings, I will probably write them all down as one pair and I have to remember all meanings. I try to find a common ground though … just an abstract idea that helps me.
If a preposition is really important I will add it to the verb or very very rarely I might put short phrases on there.
As for th nouns… well, that is just my opinion. I have always hated textbooks for telling me vegetable names in lecture 3 and giving me time-prepositions in lecture 15… I just don’t care about body parts or vegetable names. There have been many body parts for which I didn’t know the English word when I was able to discuss politics. I just think they will fly into my head anyway once I am exposed… oh and plus… the more words you know, the easier the rest will stick… when you’ve reached 2000 you might just open a dictionary pick one and know it after one repetition. Happened to me many times for really random things like ell-bow in French… A friend randomly picked that and said it while we were walking somewhere and I know it still and I never made any effort.
So the overall bottom line is… I think you need a lot of words to communicate, and I just want to get there as fast as possible. As with any sport or skill, you will have to sit down and train/learn. But in my opinion you should not spend hours and hours setting up your actual learning by collecting context and ordering vocab by fields and all that… I like pure raw randomized input.
OH and handwrite the lists… avoid computer programs that make sounds after you’ve entered a word correctly. A pen and a paper is so much faster more portable, and less tiring :)… as I said, I am really convinced of this and I think people should at least try it but I also know that it sounds like it is all what they hate about vocab combined… I hated learning vocab in school too. Very much actually. But since I have absolutely NO pressure with my method it is fun. Especially when you see progress really fast
I have a 7 page word document from when I wanted to learn Spanish… it is pretty much the beginning (I collected these lists at work, while I was a customer service person)… if you want I can upload them here… it is German-Spanish though :)
unfortunately i don’t have any easy-read novels, so when it comes to vocab collecting i’m at the mercy of what the internet throws at me. for the translations of words iv’e been using http://de.thefreedictionary.com/ which gives all the translation and examples which help with context.
as for the learning method i don’t think it’s for me, because it requires something that i don’t have – time. lack of time is caused by school pressure and personal pressure.
with school sometimes we have to learn 20 to 40 words for the NEXT day in german class and thats not like knowing 80 % of it, you gotta know all of it. so the more loose method of learning 60 words per week without a guaranteed 100% retention rate is not something i can afford here.
the other reason i don’t have time is personal pressure. i WANT to learn as many words as possible as fast as i can. with the method i use now (and it’s the same one i use for school) and at the rate i’m going now (since the 1st of june) i should learn about 1200 new german words by the end of sommer holidays. continuing at this rate i should learn an addicional 2000 to 3000 words by the end of next year when we have the Leaving Cert (Irish equivalent to German Schulabschluss or Abitur). the reason why i’m in such a rush is because i intend to study German in university, however it will be a secondary study to my main one (Mechanical Engineering) so i won’t have enough time to devote to it. basically i wanna have as much ground work done as possible now.
every person is different, but if you wanna know my current method of vocab learning, here it is:
both for school and for the lists i draw up myself, i have a list of german on the left and the corresponding translations on the right.
as i start, i do opposite to what you do, i never look at the english side. i always look at the german word and focus on that and nothing else. the translation is far off to the right so that i don’t see it with my peripheral vision (covering is not always possible, for e.g. when i use a computer). looking at nothing but that word, i then say it out lound in german and then whisper the english translation – while still looking at the german word untill it sticks.
what i’m trying to do here is simulate the encounter with the word as close as possible. when i see it or hear it in the real world, i will remember the whisper with it’s meaning, which by itself is much like a though. when i will want to remember the word going from english to german, i will remember the list and that there is nothing on it other than the exact word i need (since i never looked at the english side, there is nothing distort or clog up the memory so my brain takes the easy way out and remembers the english side instead of the german).
as i go through the list i repeat all the words up to the one i just learned. so when i learned word nr. 5, before i go to nr. 6 i repeat all the words (same method look at german, whisper the meaning). and when i learn nr 6. i repeat the list again before going to nr. 7. if i say the wrong translation, if takes me too long (like 2-3 seconds) or if i outright forget the word, i go back to that word and use the same method till it really sticks and then repeat the list again and that’s every time you make a mistake. so it’s punishing, forcing your brain to focus and not make mistakes again (thou with this method it happens maybe once or twice per 40 words tops.). so the system reinforces your knowledge of words when you learn a new on or make a mistake with a previous one.
whenever possible i use my abstract mind to help with remembering – even hand gestures if necessary.
for e.g. “selbstständig” (independant): selbst – self, ständig – sounds like standing. so self – standing, without crutsches, without others around him, without any supports – it must mean “independant”.
(initial through process, it then gets shortened)
“selbstständig” – self-standing – “independant”
(untill through repeated encounters in the real world the brain erases the less important peace of information “self-standing” and there is nothing left but)
“selbstständig” – “independant”
i use everything and enething to help remember from sounds that resembel the words (der Fluss – pretty much the whole word sounds like an object being droped in a shallow water and making a splach sound, much like something being froped in a RIVER ), or associations (peinlich sounds like “pain-like”. “seeing you make a foll of yourself is giving me a PAIN in the stomach, it’s EMBARRASING”) or even synonims in my native language Lithuanian (das Kamin – Kaminas (lithuanian for chimney)).
it’s a fairly slow method it might take 30 min to 1 hour (depending on the words) to learn for e.g. 18 new words, however for something like school where you need to learn about 40 to 60 words per week the system guarantees 100% retention rate for at least a couple of weeks (so like, before a test). for longer time stretches well…looking at the words i learn (not for school) from 1st of May of 2013 to to 4th of May – 18 words a day to a total of 72 words i can currently remember 68 of these words. considering the time gap, that’s a pretty good retention rate if you ask me (also i havent seen these words since the day i learnend them, i didn’t even come accross them bar 1 or 2 till now).
however i’m currently developing a new method because if you remember “selbstständig” still means “independant”, there is still an extra bit of information that i dont need clinging on and aslowing me down, because fluency means being 100% efficient in the langauge. in other words im trying to make a system that teaches me “selbständig” as “selbstsändig” and nothing else, no translations. pretty much, thinking like a native speaker, because you really cant afford to be constantly translating (even subconciously) if you wanna become fluent (which is what i’m trying to achieve). as it stands right now the system is:
for verbs and adjectives / adverbs use the german translation for the word. if the translation itself has too many words that you don’t know either, use an example sentence. (all of this is gotten from http://de.thefreedictionary.com/).
for nouns use images where ever possible. so like type in google images the word and while looking at the images repeat the word constantly by saying “that is an image of a (insert noun here)” , or describing the image with the object “that is a red (insert noun here)” and the plural since google images have loads of images “these are (insert noun here)”. so quite simply, when i hear or see the word is see in my mind the picture of it, instead of the translated word or a whisper.
iv’e only employed this very recently, but by the looks of it the retention rate is amazing. i learn 18 words per day, 6 days a week and on the 7th day i rest. much like a bible story lol :). so by drawing up the 18 words for the next day to be learned, i found that i could remember more than half of it the next morning and i haven’t done anything but put them in a table and add a german translation sentence / example.
i’m pretty sure it’s tied with the idea that the brain is very bad at multitasking i.e. switching from one skill set to another. very few people can do it, and even less can do it to a decent level. so 2 languages are 2 different skill sets and every time you translate from one another your loosing time and make it difficult for your brain. this is why i’m better able to remember a sentence long explanation of a german word in german instead of a single word translation of german to english, because i stay within the german skillset instead of wasting brainpower on swithing between the two. (this is also why i think people underestimate just how impressive translateros,who translate on the fly, are. they have to switch between 2 laguages, while listening and talking at the same time. thats like 4 tasks at once!)
(just to be clear, driving a car is a single task, steering, speed control, gear shifting and observation are all a single skill set. so driving a car and doing a crossword puzzle – that’s multitasking).
fluency with 2nd language where you think nothing but the language, it’s certainly possible since that’s how i am right now with my second language english and that was without much effort. living in Ireland cerainly helped, but more than anything it was 24 / 7 nonstop listening, writing, hearing , speaking and THINKING in English. it took a couple of years, but that was laxed. here i’m making a focused effort to achieve the same goal.
ok. i write way too much. i get that a lot from teachers, in fact, everybody sais i could be a great politian, because i have a skill to talk about nothing without end, and if i’m ACTUALLY talking about something, then you better strap on :)). too bad i’m not interested in politics (it’s all a hoax anyway, but that’s another topic).
anyway, lemme know your thoughs about the standard learning method and the new one i’m still testing.
Hah… I think our method aren’t actually that different because we both use lists after all and we aren’t scared of high numbers. I don’t really know how I would do in a situation like yours where I MUST remember given words (whether I like them or not) by a certain time… but your system does sound reasonable and I would definitely give it a try if the pressure was on.
And as for the tricks and hacks for remembering… I do exactly the same… gestures, similar sounding words in whichever language, breaking it down into parts, etymology and so on… whatever helps your brain fix it, I use it :)… and what else our methods have in common is the fact that most people would be like “Uhg… no way… that is NOT fun” :)
As for your new method… 2 thoughts… first of I think you can only use it once you’ve reached a certain level. I think for an absolute beginner it might be way slower to do it that way than using translations… I haven’t tried so I don’t know, just my impression.
As soon as you’re a little advanced it is feasible and they did force us to use and ENglish-English dictionary in school. However, I have despised that from the core of my heart. I need translations… not so much to know the exact translation but rather to find the boundaries of the meaning-bubble of a word…. having 3 different translations in German for a words helps me understand the scope of it and deducing the central point of it.
However, I think this is mostly a question of training. Once you’ve trained and conditioned your brain to work without translations it will do a great job… just the training phase would be quite long for me since I am such a translation hugger… oh and as for the pictures…. I am way too lazy for that :).
there is one danger with the one-language translation and that is misunderstanding something. A friend of mine (Italian) is using a German-only dictionary and there have been several occasion where he totally got it wrong…
Anyway… it is a fine method, I think it does take a lot of training and a lot of work. But after all that is what it takes to learn a language quickly. Vocab is the key and you need to do the works for it or you won’T get very far :)
By the way… translators that translate in the fly are insane… this is soooooo difficult. I have tried once to life-translate the German news into English on the fly (I was bored and couldn’t sleep) and I didn’t even get one sentence without 50% missing. Plus… After 10 minutes I was SOOOOO tired.
If you want to hear a really annoying translator…
http://www.ardmediathek.de/das-erste/ard-sondersendung/barack-obamas-rede-in-berlin?documentId=15255444
the speech of Obama starts in the middle and the person translating it gets on my nerves soooooo much… and then there is a positive example:
http://ondemand-mp3.dradio.de/file/dradio/2013/06/19/drk_20130619_1520_3a046184.mp3
same speech… also live… and yet soo different
“first of I think you can only use it once you’ve reached a certain level.” yeah that’s pretty much a given, you gotta have a certaib level achieved to do the new method. but once you do it works wonders because some words have synonims that not only can be easier to understand than the word you’re learning, but also they are easy to remember since all 2 or 3 synonims all carry the same meaning. so i learned “eintönig” but i also remember “gleichförmig” and “monoton” at the same time without ever making an effort to learn them, but i know them simply because they were part of the translation of “eintönig”.
“there is one danger with the one-language translation and that is misunderstanding something.” that is certainly a fact. while “eintönig , gleichförmig and monoton” carry very close translation to each other, i’m pretty sure i can’t just pich and choose which ever one i wanna use. some fit somewhere specific, others don’t.
the way i went about it when learning english was just saying which ever one i wanted (on purpose) and my friends would correct me if it was wildly out of place. however, unless your’re doing like an english homework or something, there is a certain ammount of leeway when using a wrong synonim in english (cause with 1,000,000 words there are a LOT of synonims), so it’s not too bad and i’m hoping that the german is in the same way (with the 4th largest vocab in the world).
unfortunately the best i can do here for german is just read and listen, internet and radio/movies to see where and how these words are used once i come across them.
besides that there is a certain level of Sprachgefühl that can’t be learned, it can only be accuired. what i mean is: i can’t tell you what the grammar rules for using “the” and “a/an” for english are, in fact, i’m not sure they even exist. and they were quite a shock for me at first, because lithuanian has no definite or indefinite articles in the language at all. but after a couple of years, give me any sentence you like, any word and article combination you like and i will instantly without a slightest hesitation will tell you if the article there is right or wrong. don’t ask me how i know it…i just know it. and that’s Sprachgefühl for ya :)
apparently to become a Dolmetscher you need years of HARD study (i.e. it’s not like those simple humanity courses :) ), at which point you will know several languages fluently (i mean, absolutely any topic at all) and then the best part…the pay sucks. like, it’s not good at all :/ so truly, they are heroes among us lol
PS. i haven’t mentioned it already, but my spelling on the computer blows. hard. (only on the computer though, it’s just the way i type)
Hahahaha… what doy ou mean with “simple humanity courses”? ;D … Sprachgefühl is the best :)… but to an extend you can get it just by reading and listening so don’t worry… I am sure your German will be very very good soon… don’t worry about your spelling btw. I read comment threads on Youtube, other video sites and even serious discussion boards sometimes… spelling is only for wizards :)
well i don’t actually know much about em, but humanity courses are things like language, history, philosophy, religion, the arts and literature. basically they are not really taxing so anyone can study them and they carry very little value on your C.V. by themselves. so if you go to employer and say you studdied history and religion, he’s gonna have a hearty laugh: “cool story bro. you got any actual qualifications?”
you see language up there but that is as i said – a stand alone thing. if you wanna become a translator then it’s a whole different ball game and your study will be different (but as i said previously, the pay still sucks). :)
i know spelling on the internet doesn’t matter much, but mine is particularly bad at times :)
may i ask a question about your english?
where or how did you learn it? was school enough or did you do it mostly yourself or did you go to a university or abroad or something?
your current level of english is – well there is pretty much no problems with it, so i wanted to know which method (school, uni etc) did you use and how long it took to reach this level?
Danke im Voraus :)
With my English it is a weird story… I had 9 years of English in school and in the beginning I really liked it (just as I did like French) but soon it changed and I kind of just sat through it. In the final years you would always have some people in the class who had spent some time abroad and they would talk with the teacher the whole time and use vocab I wouldn’t know … so… I didn’t really participate and I really had to concentrate to give people directions and (looking back at how my French was a disaster) I was convinced that I was just not a language guy. Then, I applied for Erasmus in Finland and I had to improve my ENglish so I watched movies and tried to understand rap-lyrics and it came pretty quickly. Then, I was in Finland for 7 months, got an American girlfriend, was in the US for 5 months and ever since I have aimed for complete native-like fluency … I watch a lot of videos, read aloud to myself and I do work on my accent to make it disappear by picking difficult words or phrases and saying over and over until I get it right. After all, I think 9 years of school English do leave traces in your brain and all you have to do is reactivate it and then improve. Oh and lastly, German is fairly close to English so that helped a lot… but there is still much to do, so I will keep reaching for the sky :)… as for your English, well, hadn’t you told me where you’re originally from I would have taken you for a native and especially considering that Lithuanian is certainly very different from English,… well.. chapeau! as they say :)
Damn it, so your story basically confirms it that there’s no other way to become fluent other that go to the target country i.e. do some kind of exchange program. i just hope the university course will have something serious along those lines…
Well iv’e been in Ireland for 7ish years now but i pretty much could understand anything i came accross after 3ish years. after going to school for 7 years – 5 of them in secondary school and 4 of them learning higher level english (german equivalent is something like “Oberstufe Englisch” that is if there are levels like that in Germany) there is very little that i wouldn’t know in english. in fact, i know more english now than i do Lithuanian, that’s due to forgetting and due to the fact that i havent learned the Lithuanian words for things like “glaciers” or “enzimes” since i was in Irish school while learning those defintions (and i guess i didn’t care looking them um in lithuanian since i wasn’t gonna use that anywhere, nor am i thinking of going back to lithuanian some day.).
However even today, rap songs is just one thing iv’e difficulty with. I can’t tell you exactly why it’s hard for me to follow it, but it’s the combinations of fast talk and a LOT of slang/context plus the rappers morph the words a lil so that they would be short enough and/or rhyme. ill understand Shakespearean english before i’ll understand rap songs (and that’s saying something cause Shakespearean english is hard, wether you’re native or not). so i don’t think that would be the best place to start learning the language :)
As for accent, i had none. Well, i’m lying, i have an american accent (thanks to the movies and games), but i don’t have any “foreigner english” accent. i dunno if that’s due to me just being receptive to languages or the lithuanian alphabed which kinda lets us mimick the sounds of pretty much any language (since lithuanian is the oldest indo european language if my memory serves correctly). i suspect it’s the combination of the two, since i can mimick the german accent, no problem (only Hochdeutsch cause that’s the one were learning.)
i actually got a question about the Hochdeutsch accent. basically what’s its status? so it’s spoken in the northern – ish parts and it’s the “proper” german accent. but what about people with other accent’s, would they understand you fine and vice versa? as far as i know it’s hard for people with other german accents speak in Hochdeutsch. why is that? also is there any status attached to the accent? like if you speak it, it is percieved then that your learned and stuff like that.
So, I can’t really say what exactly is Hochdeutsch but word is that the least dialect colored German is spoken around Hannover which is north but not super north. I think any German, German-Swisse and Austrian person understands Hochdeutsch without any problems and I think most people are able to reduce their accent to a degree, that they can be easily understood. However, there will be little tiny bits and pieces that will tell where they’re from. For instance, for a Bavarian it would just be weird to not tongue roll the r so they will do that even if the rest is perfect Hochdeutsch.
Can I understand all dialects. Clearly no.. the further south the more problems I will have and really thick Bavarian is almost incomprehensible to me… same for Plattdeutsch from the extreme north by the way. I think the Ruhrgebiet dialects and the Berlin Brandenburg one are rather simple to understand. Especially Berlin tends to be a bit slooooooow and over articulate in its own right. However, if you lack certain basic patterns of what letter changes to what sound in dialect you will have problems with any dialect…
As for status… I think the stereotypes about the people who speak the accent are generalized to the accent. So … a Berlin accent sounds a bit vulgar and doesn’t go well with high society while a slight Munich accent can sound very distinguished and the Saxonian one is the one to mimic old GDR politicians because back then Saxonian was en vogue… not so much anymore :). What I wouldn’t recommend is trying to do an accent or learn it without being exposed… because people can always tell and that will be a case for Fremdschämen … like … if I try to do British or Texan accent … oh my god, so embarrassing :D
It’s interesting to hear about the variation in dialects. A week ago a saw this video comparing German dialect to an Austrian one and got a bit worried that all this good ol’ fashioned Deutsch I’m working on might not encompass Austria and Switzerland as well.
In my naivety I didn’t quite expect such a noticeable difference. But it’s comforting to know that at least they would understand my Hochdeutsch well, and that I would just have to work more to understand the patterns of their particular dialect.
Also, when it comes to pronounciation, that German “R” sound with the roll is something I’ve been working on (because it sounds better than the American “R”). But it’s tough while not having learned it before haha, a bit like gargling with no water. Previously understanding the difference in pronounciation of “u” and “ü” was something that I didn’t understand, but now I got it down :). On this note, are there any pronounciations of English syllables/words/vowels that you had difficulty with?
Well, I cannot understand Austrian if they don’t want me too and the same goes for Swiss people, I suppose. But then, the same is true for Bavarians. It would be interesting whether a person from Bavaria (just north of Autria) has real issues with Austrian. Learning Hochdeutsch is definitely a good choice though and in pretty much any text book there are one or two chapters about the D-A-CH-countries (based on their car plate codes)… so I think a language school in Austria might use the same book as one in Hamburg (no guarantee though)…
As for my difficulties with pronouncing English… there still are, and there always will be I reckon.
One of the very first HUGE issues when I started REALLY speaking English (in Finnland) was the transition from “th” to “s”
– Southside.
I was like 10 times slower than an American and you could literally watch me rearrange my mouth
I have trained and now I am super quick.
The next one was this sort of slurry “thes” endings as in
– clothes.
And then everything that is connected to “r” “d” and “l”. A word I was particularly struggling with was
– particularly
I go for a straight America accent which means that I must pronounce every “r” in that word. And the second one followed by the “l” was a huge challenge.
I think it is because the German “l” is actually quite different to the English one… much more in the front. I can hear it when an English native speaker says “hallo”. So… this I tried very hard and there were several other words I trained with
– all the girls in the world
– generally
I think I am okay with that now, but of course new issues arise.
I was watching “Mad Men” and some of them talk really fast. Which pisses me off because I cannot talk that fast (yet) without swallowing syllables. But there is one sentence I am working on at the moment
– Not in in that order.
I can say that accurately but there are limits to how fast I can say it. And I want to say it as fast as Peggy (if you’ve seen the show). She says it in a less than a second and still both “r”s and the “d” are perfectly distinguishable. I still stumble. Especially if I haven’t “warmed up”.
So… I think the ultimate challenge is that German and English native speakers have a different position for the tip of their tongue. It shows in the “s” too.. English “s” in a German word sounds like “sh” sometimes. The German one is just much more “lispy”
If you really want to purge your accent you need to find those things you cannot say because there you’ll realize that you’re still using the configuration of your own language to speak the other… for most cases it can be good enough with a little bit of training but some things are just physically impossible. You can only move your tongue so fast. So if you’re to slow on a certain sound, it just might be that you’re wrong BEFORE… the being slow is just a result of that. Wew… I can talk for hours about that I think :). I just really like to watch myself and train.
One thing… it usually works better when I am lying on my back. I think because the tongue doesn’t have to compensate for gravity as much and the tip can move more freely :)
Interesting points you’ve mentioned. The placement of the tongue is definitely important to keep in mind. It’s amazing how easy and natural it is to speak a language when you’ve grown up with it and its particular nuances in pronounciation . It definitely does take a good amount of training to be able to speak a foreign language accurately and at a quick pace without an overbearing accent.
And lol @ the lying down technique. I might just have to try that sometime.
P.S.
Whenever I see tongue-twisters, I think of “Unique New York” from Anchorman haha (@ 40s):
Oh… tongue twisters. Try this one:
– Blaukraut bleibt Blaukraut und Brautkleid bleibt Brautkleid.
This is maybe the hardest one I have ever seen. I stumble 50% of the time and if I don’t I at least slow down toward the end a great deal.
Oh and this one:
“In Ulm, um Ulm und um Ulm herum” (Ulm is a city)
Alright, thanks for all the answers :D (draged on a bit didn’ it? :) )
Yeah it did :)… in fcat you were pushed out of my comment feed which only displays the latest 8 or so … and then today I was like… hey wait a second, hadn’t there been something :D
lol :D
A useful variant is ‘erst recht’ meaning ‘a priori’ , usually at the start of a sentence. Lucius
Oh.. I think there is a misunderstanding.
“Erst recht” does not mean a priori … at least not if my understanding of a prior is correct (but my Leo.org dictionary search suggests it is).
“Erst recht” means something like “especially”
-“Kommst du zur Party?”
“Nein”
“Aber Thomas kommt auch”
“Pfff… dann komm ich erst recht nicht.”
– “Are you gonna come to the party?”
“No”
“But Thomas is coming too.”
“Well, especially then I WON’T come.”
Also, “erst recht is rarely at the start of a sentence because it is really closely connected to stuff that has been said before. It can start a sentence but that will always be a truncated sentence of its own.
– Ich komme nicht zur Party .Erst recht nicht, wenn Thomas kommt.
Does that make sense? Do you have examples for other “erst recht”s? … maybe I am blind and can’t see the obvious :)… and also, do you have an example for “a priori”?
Ein Freund hat mir eben gesagt, dass man “erst recht” verwenden würde, wenn man etwas noch eher nicht macht als etwas anderes: (z.B.) “Das mache ich nicht, aber DAS mache ich erst recht nicht”.
Ja das stimmt, aber “erst recht” funktioniert auch für positive Statements.
Stell dir vor, du hast ein Projekt. Und dann treffen du und dein Team auf einmal auf ein großes Problem. Dann würde man sagen
– Jetzt erst recht.
Und das ist so wie
– Now, we’re REALLY gonna do it. The problem just gave us a push of motivation.
Wie gesagt… ich glaube “especially” trifft es ganz gut.
– I don’t want this and I ESPECIALLY don’t want that.
HOW did I not discover this blog earlier?
This is just what I need. Thank you! :-)
There is a good side of finding it “erst” now… there is some stuff here to read… had you found it right in the beginning there would have been only 2 articles. Glad you like it… have fun looking around ;)
*Frauen und Kinder zuerst!* – (Frauen und Kinder erst! wrong)
Here, *zuerst* can not be substituted by *erst*. Is that because this is a shortened predicative *Frauen and Kinder seien zuerst!* ?
*Erst Frauen und Kinder.* works perfectly.
That is a very very good question and I had to think about for a while. So here is how I explained it to myself… “zuerst” is an adverb of time. It can answer the question “when” all by itself.
– Wann kommen Frauen und Kinder?
– Zuerst.
“Erst” is an adverb but it is not an information on its own… kind of like “sehr”…
– Wie groß bist du?
– Sehr.
That doesn’t really work. So just like “sehr” “erst” has to be part of a constituent. In our case it is the subject but it can also be an object
– Ich esse erst Suppe, dann Pasta.
I cannot use “erst” to answer “when” though:
– Wann isst du Suppe?
– Erst.
Doesn’t work. On some level I feel like “erst” is a conjunction of manner.
– Erst mach ich das, dann das.
That is kind of the answer to “How do you do that?”.
As for predicative… I don’t know… if “schnell” in
– Ich fahre schnell.
is a predicative to you then I guess you could call “zuerst” that too, but then.. what isn’t a predicative :). I think the main point is that “zuerst” can be a constituent and “erst” can’t. Hope that helps
This was awesome. I came here to find out the difference between “zuerst” and “erst” and came away with MUCH more. I especially enjoyed reading about your learning methods and it was pretty close to my own approach once I had reached a certain level after several years of Spanish. One of the essential things was always, always making lists! I still do that and I agree that for some reason, it has to be with a pen and not a keyboard — huge difference! I also have joked for years that I learned half of the Spanish I know while in the bathroom over the years — hey, every opportunity counts, right? I’m also now taking the approach to German where I’m trying to flood myself with words and lists, and then I check back to see what has stuck and what needs to go on the new list. The observation about the importance of verbs and prepositions etc., vis a vis nouns is really interesting. I’m going to have to mull that one over in my mind for a while.
Also, it was interesting to read what sorts of words or sounds from English give Germans a hard time. I struggle with a simple word like “nichts.” I can get to “nicht” okay, but add that final “s” and you messed me up. But yeah, I had never really thought about it but the “thes” in “clothes” is a strange formulation. I read somewhere else that Germans have a hard time with the word “thistle” which has another of those vague things going on sort of like in “clothes.” As far as the comments on spelling, since German and especially Spanish are largely phonetic languages, I have a greater appreciation for how hard it must be to literally have to memorize the spelling of every single word in a new language (a la English)… So when I get frustrated about sorting out which case, gender, singular/plural formulation to use, or which of 16 possible definite articles, I tell myself that at least I don’t have to memorize the unique spelling of every single word of German without the benefit of significant, generally reliable phonetic markers and rules! Whew…
Finally, you posted this two years ago, and no one answered the “First We Take Manhattan, Then We Take Berlin” question?!!! This is a fantastic song from Jennifer Warnes’ Famous Blue Raincoat album (c. 1987) — also performed I believe somewhere by its author, the great songwriter Leonard Cohen (a much better songwriter than singer/performer, in my opinion — for the music, stick to Jennifer Warnes). I don’t know how I “know” this, but the lyrics presumably are a parody, or a tongue-in-cheek critique, of the supposedly “deep” (but in reality, very silly and superficial) “ideology” of the often violent, radical ‘left’ of Europe in the 1960s and beyond up through to the Baader-Meinhof gang, as well as similar-minded groups. I have no idea where I read that or where I heard it, but that is the story/meaning of those strange lyrics from that great song as far as I know.
Wow, and we have a winner! You really do know a lot about the song. It’s one of the ones of my late childhood that just really sticks in my mind … this line in particular. Probably because some English band is actually singing the name Berlin :D. Anyway, thanks for the insights, and I promised it so you can choose one word and I’ll discuss it very soon… there are 3 I am really scared of though (eben, gerade, ja). I don’t know if I can handle those in summer:)
Oh and as for pronunciation… “nichts” really seems to be tricky for people. Many of my students have a hard time with it. And another one is “Gesicht” vs. “Geschichte”… it often ends up as something like “gezshte”.
Thanks, Emanuel. It’s funny that you just mentioned specifically “eben”, since I ran across that word only this morning in my reading, in a context that made no sense to me… but I can wait till after summer. There are still many, many “Words of the Day” essays in the list that you have already explained that I have not had time to read yet, so those will keep me busy for quite a while. But I would enjoy reading your take on the “Wo” words (not wo, wohin, and woher, but rather wofuer, womit, worauf, etc.,) along the same lines as your very interesting explanation of the “Da- words”. That article, and the “mind yoga” explanation you gave us really helped a lot with finally understanding damit, darauf, danach, etc…, so it would be great to see you take on the Wo- words the same way. I know they are related but obviously not the same. Please keep up the great works. I shared your website link with my classmates from German class last night! Again, thanks a lot.
Deal. I actually wasn’t really thinking about writing about the wo-words but I will do it! And save “eben” for the grey, shitty Berlin fall (comes after the beautiful Berlin fall :)
What a wonderful article … Vielen Dank
Gerne… Thanks for the feedback :)
You use only to replace erst but I think if you use “just” the idea transfers better. Try it. “The concert starts at just 9 o clock. I have eaten just one apple. He is just 5 years old. We have been here just three weeks.” This works a lot better.
The examples with already do not work. “Please wake me already at 10” That has no meaning and nobody would say this. I have no idea what you are trying to say here.
Thanks for the info about “only”. So “I have eaten just one apple” implies that there are more to come?
As for the example with waking up… I was basically literally translating “schon” but I guess that’s one instance where “already” just can’t do what “schon” does. The point is that the speaker considers 10 to be early/earlier than usual.
– Weck mich schon um 10, (also ziemlich früh)
– Weck mich um 10 (neutral)
– Weck mich erst um 10 (also spät, no earlier than 10)
How would you express that in English?
Haha, ich habe bemerkt, dass die Deutsche sehr SEHR oft das Word “schon” falsch übersetzen. Ich glaube, meistens, kann “schon” bedeuten “already”, “yet”, “by” oder “ever”. Manchmal, braucht man überhaupt kein Wort auf Englisch, wenn “schon” auf Deutsch notwendig ist.
-Hast du Tim schon heute morgen gesehen?
-Have you seen Tim yet this morning? (Like, do you know if he’s here yet?)
oder nur -Have you seen Tim (this morning)? (Is he around?)
Das Tempus “have seen” impliziert “yet” oder “ever”, also “yet” ist nicht ganz notwendig. Wenn ich “yet” sage, das heißt, dass ich vielleicht ein Bisschen Ungeduld habe. Oder es ist spät genug, dass ich vermute, dass du ihn schon gesehen hast. Man benutzt “yet” mit Ereignissen, die bestimmt geschehen werden/sind, und mehrmals geschehen können. Man benutzt “already” mit Ereignissen, die nur einmal geschehen müssen. Mit “already” vermutet man nicht, dass die Sachen bestimmt passieren werden.
-Honey, have you done the dishes already? (Or shall I get started on them?)
vs.
-Honey, have you done the dishes yet? (Because they’re not going to do themselves …!)
Im ersten Beispiel benutzt deine Freundin “already”, weil das Geschirr nicht wieder gespült werden muss, wenn es schon gespült ist. Sie nimmt nicht an, dass du das Geschirr spülen wirst. Im zweiten Beispiel, das Wort “yet” impliziert dass das Ereignis definitiv passieren wird, oder schon passiert ist. Deine Freundin will herausfinden, ob du deine Hausarbeit schon gemacht hast.
-Have you seen Tim yet?
Vielleicht hast du ihn schon mehrmals gesehen, aber das ist egal. Ich will herausfinden, ob du ihn gesehen hast oder nicht.
“Have you already seen Tim?” ist ein Bisschen wie “Did you already see Tim?”. Das würde implizieren, dass du ihn nur einmal sehen musst (für einen Termin vielleicht). Wenn du das sagst, würde ich nie verstehen, “Ist Tim hier?” Ich würde wahrscheinlich verstehen, “Tim wollte mit dir sprechen.”
-Weck mich schon um 10
-Wake me by 10.
10 muss nicht super früh sein, aber wenn du mich später als 10 Uhr weckst, kann sein dass ich einen Termin oder einen Bus verpasse. Es ist wichtig, dass du mich um 10 oder ein Bisschen vor 10 weckst. (“Wake me _at_ 10” heißt _genau_ um 10 Uhr.)
Ich glaube, wenn es um Ereignisse im Zukunft geht, ist “already” fast nie das richtige Wort. Denn, “already” heißt, dass etwas “already” passiert ist, und musst nicht wieder passieren. Die Ausnahme ist Futur Perfekt (Futur II), denn es wird im Zukunft “already” passiert sein.
-Wenn du nach Hause kommst, werde ich schon eingeschlafen sein. (Grammatik? … )
-When you get home, I will already be asleep / will have already gone to bed.
Aber
-Aufgrund des Feiertags schließt die Mensa heute leider schon um 13 Uhr.
-Because of the holiday, the Mensa will close at 1:00 today.
Hier gibt es kein gute Übersetzung für schon, und “already” wäre absolut falsch. Kein Wort ist notwendig. Man konnte sagen, “The Mensa will close early today, at 1:00”, aber “The Mensa will close at 1:00 already” klingt einem Muttersprachler schrecklich, weil es noch nicht passiert ist, also das Wort “already” ist Unsinn. Aber Deutsche benutzen diese falsche Übersetzung oft. :-)
Es ist möglich – wahrscheinlich sogar – dass mein Deutsch, oder mein verstehen von Deutsch, falsch ist. Es stört mich gar nicht, wenn du mich korrigierst!
-Barratt
Cool. Das mit “already” vs “yet” wusste ich noch nicht. Super interessant. Jetzt kann ich die Wörter besser verwenden. Danke!
Ih habe früher den Fehler mit “already=schon” auch quasi immer gemacht, und erst, nachdem mich hier irgendwo im Kommentar jemand drauf aufmerksam gemacht hat, habe ich es gemerkt.
Dein Deutsch ist super gut! Hier und da gibt es ein paar kleine Schnitzer (Fehler), die verraten, dass du nicht Muttersprachler bist, aber ansonsten echt beeindruckend, zumal das ja schwierige Aussagen und Sätze waren, mit den ganzen Nebensätzen. Hut ab (Chapeau). Das Beispiel mit “einschlafen” ist perfekt.
Hier mal zwei Sachen, die mir aufgefallen sind:
– Ungeduld haben … man sagt “ungeduldig sein”
– Im zweiten Beispiel, das Wort “yet”… nach “Beispiel” muss Verb kommen
– mein Verstehen von Deutsch… besser “Verständnis”, “Verstehen” ist sehr technisch und passt nur wenn du wirklich was im Moment verstehen musst (wie beim Hörverstehen)
– … und musst nicht wieder passieren … sollte sein:
– … und nicht wieder passieren muss… (das “dass” wirkt fort (fortwirken… keep having an effect… not the away-fort)
Great article, but I don’t get it. :(
Mein Handy ist (schon) 5 Jahre alt. Vs. Mein Sohn ist erst 5 Jahre alt.
they are both 5 years old. What’s the difference?
To compare apples to apples, could u please explain the difference between “Mein Sohn ist erst 5” and “Mein Sohn ist schon 5”?
5 is already quite the age for a cell phone but not for a human.
– Mein Sohn ist schon 5.
– Mein Sohn ist erst 5.
The difference is a matter of perspective. The first example sees 5 as comparatively old already. A fitting context would be someone who said “Mein Sohn ist 3.”
The second example expresses that the speaker considers the age as comparatively young. Maybe someone asked the person what grades the son got and then you’d say “He’s only 5” to express that he isn’t even in school yet.
Let me know if that helps.
Thanks! It helps. Here erst =only, but erst doesn’t = nur. That’s the part that throws me, because nur was one of the first words I learned in German.
BTW, I liked your explanation of nämlich, it was very easy to follow.
I discovered your site this morning. Am planning to start reviewing fairly easy words, avoiding things like erst, doch, gar, etc. :-D
Oh my God… I have just stumbled upon your site…. I have not, in all the time I’ve been learning German, had so much fun…. you completely crack me up! and what’s more your explanations are sticking like glue! I am finding German an incredible difficult and tiresome language to learn, just wanted to thank you for putting the fun back into learning…. I can now bin the matchsticks… yippeeeeee!!!! xx
Yeah…”learfuning” is just so much better than “learning”. Thanks for the lovely feedback. Ich wünsch dir ganz viel Spaß hier :)
Thanks for great article about erst! I can’t just realize that in the “only” meaning of erst, does it have some negative implication? I mean a kind of combination of “only” and “less than we have expected”. For example, “Ich habe erst 10 Euro” means that I have just 10 dollars, there is yet to come, besides 10 dollars is less than I wanted to have.
I came across another description of the usage of erst for time events.
English uses a “negative expression” (if you will) to denote the beginning of an action. The class -does not start until- 8. German just doesn’t work that way. It expresses that concept in a positive way, with ‘erst’: Die Klasse fängt -erst- um 8 an.
That’s a nice way to put it, danke :)